Ukraine

Krgrecw said:
Putin needs the Navy Base in Crimera. That's what this whole things about . He feared that a pro -western gov't would let him use it so he went in to take it before a new pro-western gov't was formed.
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Exactly.

This could help the west out by fortifying all the rest of the ex-Soviet bloc countries.
 
jpx7 said:
Wishing what? Like I said: personally—except when she's actually Tina Fey in disguise—I don't really let Palin bother me, one way or the other.
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Unfortunately JP, we often get so emotionally wrapped up in demonizing someone from our political opponents (and some are easy targets!) that it makes it nearly impossible to admit when they might be right about this or that. I wish that weren't the case. I wish that we could be mature enough to admit when we are wrong and an opponent is correct. It's a matter of pride though. But such pride, imho, makes one look small.
 
Here's a good historical piece by Philip Jenkins. Link

"….It would be pleasant to think that the U.S. and Europe are taking these religious factors into full account as they calculate their response to the present crisis in Crimea and Ukraine. Pleasant, but unlikely."
 
BedellBrave said:
Unfortunately JP, we often get so emotionally wrapped up in demonizing someone from our political opponents (and some are easy targets!) that it makes it nearly impossible to admit when they might be right about this or that. I wish that weren't the case. I wish that we could be mature enough to admit when we are wrong and an opponent is correct. It's a matter of pride though. But such pride, imho, makes one look small.
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It's just not impressive. It doesn't matter. It's not like she had some deep knowledge. She threw something at a wall and it stuck. What's the point in bringing it up? It's only brought up because that's all she's got left.
 
zitothebrave said:
I just think it's amusing that American's are OK with our imperialistic efforts but Russia ZOMG!!!

I think both are wrong, and would rather be semi-isolationists. America has the baddest military in the world. We don't have to walk around telling everyone about it. We can wipe anyone out. We have a strikeforce military we can quickly be anywhere in the world and with the most advanced troops on the ground. We're not an occupying army, we are acting too much like it in a very expensive way. We'd be better off with our early 20th century philosophy.
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Real gangsta ass niggas don't flex nuts, 'cause real gangsta ass niggas know they got'em
 
*wouldnt let Putin use it.

Russia is surrounded by pro-western countries and only have one military base outside of Russia. Europe by itself could clobber Russia in a battle.

Guess France and Germany need the oil more than they care.

AerchAngel said:
Exactly.

This could help the west out by fortifying all the rest of the ex-Soviet bloc countries.
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Can you imagine all the troubles of the world which would be solved if we had alternative energy? Imagine if Russia had nothing of value to hold over the US and Europe because they could run their countries without the need of insane consumption of fossil fuels. Russia and the ME would lose a hell of a valuable commodity.
 
Stolen from reddit

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BedellBrave said:
Here's a good historical piece by Philip Jenkins. Link

"….It would be pleasant to think that the U.S. and Europe are taking these religious factors into full account as they calculate their response to the present crisis in Crimea and Ukraine. Pleasant, but unlikely."
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Bedell, do you think the church/state cooperation Jenkins' describes is authentic or just another means for the state to solidify its position and justify its policies?
 
50PoundHead said:
Bedell, do you think the church/state cooperation Jenkins' describes is authentic or just another means for the state to solidify its position and justify its policies?
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Hard to say 50. Course I can't blame the Orthodox for enjoying this season. The Communist Atheists seriously underestimated how deep-seated the Orthodox faith was.
 
Ukraine has one of the most tragic histories of the 20th century. From the purges and enforced famine of the 30s to German invasion and subsequent horrors, Ukraine has seen a disproportionate share of suffering. Four million civilians, including a million Jews, died during the occupation. Many thousands of Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis and participated in the slaughter of the Jewish population. Others joined partisan groups or risked their lives to save Jews from extermination. All suffered.

That historical context is something that most of us on this side of the Atlantic simply can't relate to.

With regard to the religious question, Bedell, I think it's something that those of us at such a remove have a hard time getting our heads around. As much as we decry the horrors of the atheistic USSR, those of us who are making Putin out to be a new Stalin have to acknowledge that he is taking action under the aegis of the Orthodox church—and that much of the Ukrainian opposition is doing the same. Two groups who are identical in worship are divided and schismatic because of nationalist issues.
 
Agreed. I do think that the Jenkins article is helpful - in that it urges us not to take religion out of the equation, even if it is so foreign.
 
BedellBrave said:
Agreed. I do think that the Jenkins article is helpful - in that it urges us not to take religion out of the equation, even if it is so foreign.
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I don't disagree with that at all. At the macro level, I think religion may tend to irritate the problem. At the micro level, it can salve wounds and hopefully lead to greater understanding amongst the people in the affected areas. Considering it is part of considering the context, and I agree that it is worthwhile.
 
I know a lady from the Ukraine and she told me something that I as a history teacher for 20 years (my lifetime's passion study wise has been WW2) still did not know, she said the Nazis actually took trainloads of Ukrainian topsoil back to Germany while they occupied that area. Has anyone else ever heard this one?? I know their soil is among the best in the world but I had not ever seen or heard that the Nazis transported a bunch of it back to Germany.
 
The Obama administration has rolled out its first round of 'sanctions' ... according this morning's NYT, we are placing travel restrictions on approximately 12 Russian nationals who were involved in the invasion of Crimea.

Meanwhile, the EU has refused to do anything except schedule the cancellation of talks with Russia over menial issues such as visa relaxation.

So far, I'm seeing zero incentive for Putin to withdraw.

Europe is dragging its feet, as always.
 
Oklahomahawk said:
I know a lady from the Ukraine and she told me something that I as a history teacher for 20 years (my lifetime's passion study wise has been WW2) still did not know, she said the Nazis actually took trainloads of Ukrainian topsoil back to Germany while they occupied that area. Has anyone else ever heard this one?? I know their soil is among the best in the world but I had not ever seen or heard that the Nazis transported a bunch of it back to Germany.
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Makes sense. They are the bread basket of Europe.
 
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