Spring Training Gamethread/Discussion

Is Fredi seriously thinking of batting BJ second? I thought that was just a spring training thing to get him more at bats. The only way that makes sense to me is if the leadoff hitter was going to steal a lot since BJ swings and misses a lot. Heyward is too valuable to risk injury stealing bases so this makes no sense. I would put Johnson second. He will atleast hit for a good average. Justin can swing for the fences from the cleanup spot, he is going to do that no matter where they put him. Atleast 4th he will have runners on base.
 
I agree it's a dumb idea but you most certainly get better pitches to hit depending on where you are in a lineup.

If it does, the afffect is so minimal its not even worth mentioning.

If it really does, do you want a bad hitter getting good pitches to hit or a good hitter?
 
do you want a bad hitter getting good pitches to hit or a good hitter?

And that's the part I don't get about the argument. I disagree with the core part of the argument, when you get to the majors aside from the 8 hitter in the NL, you don't really see guys get pitched around because of the hitter behind them too often.

I can think of a few scenarios where lineup protection can benefit, if you're facing someone with control issues, and you have a dead red fastball hitter. Placing him in a situation where the pitcher has to throw fastballs over could be very beneficial to that hitter. Even then I think the net gain would be negligible.
 
If it does, the afffect is so minimal its not even worth mentioning.

If it really does, do you want a bad hitter getting good pitches to hit or a good hitter?

How exactly then do you explain very large sample sizes of players having tons more success at different spots in the lineup? Can those large samples really all be just chance? (Heyward at leadoff is a good example)
 
How exactly then do you explain very large sample sizes of players having tons more success at different spots in the lineup? Can those large samples really all be just chance? (Heyward at leadoff is a good example)

I'd be interested in seeing the data. There will always be a certain amount of ramdom variation. To me the interesting question is whether past success in a particular spot is predictive of future success. For example if we picked all the players who have hit better as #2 hitters than #3 hitters in one year, will that group also continue doing better as #2 hitters during the next season. I'm not aware of any such evidence. It would be interesting to see such an analysis.
 
How exactly then do you explain very large sample sizes of players having tons more success at different spots in the lineup? Can those large samples really all be just chance? (Heyward at leadoff is a good example)

Sample size I think plays the biggest part. Using Heyward he only has 138 PA at leadoff.

I do think there are some lineup spots that favor certain hitters. For example I'd rather have a patient hitter hitting 8th than an impatient hitter. McLouth did really well for us that 1 year hitting 8th because he took pitches and walked a ton. TLS for example may be insane out of the 8 hole. His eye would likely lead to tons of walks. Aside from that, most other hitters do better/worse in decent samples in certain spots has to do with a mental thing, Hitting is largely mental.
 
How exactly then do you explain very large sample sizes of players having tons more success at different spots in the lineup? Can those large samples really all be just chance? (Heyward at leadoff is a good example)

Heyward had 138 plate appearences batting leadoff. When you are talking about very large sample size, you need a heck of a lot more than that.
 
Again, that really depends on just how much you value defense. I just don't think a definitive statement can be made that either Heyward has been more valueable up to this point and that he will be more valuable moving forward. To just quote WAR and try to make it an open and shut case I think it inappropriate.

Here is an interesting write-up about defense and WAR, this one talks about Simmons:

This is from Joe Peta

Adding to that annual tradition, let’s take a look at Adrelton Simmons, the Atlanta Braves 24 year-old Gold Glove winning shortstop. On the strength of his first full season in 2013, in which he finished 14th in MVP voting, the Braves bestowed a 7-year, $58 million contract on Simmons this offseason. That’s a lot of money for a player who hit .248/.296/.396. Shortstops across the majors hit .254/.308/.367 making Simmons essentially a player with league-average offensive talent at the weakest-hitting position on the field. Because it’s average production, there are a lot of shortstops around the league (Zack Cozart, Erik Aybar, and Asdrubal Cabrera are good examples) with similar production and they aren’t getting $58mm guaranteed contracts.

That’s because, of course, Simmons has been called the greatest fielding shortstop to enter the majors in a generation. Unlike the days of Larry Bowa, Dave Concepcion, and Ozzie Smith, we don’t have to guess at the value of defense. These days, defense is a component of WAR, and a look at Baseball-Reference shows Simmons as a 6.8 WAR player in 2013. 6.8 is a huge amount of WAR – enough to rank Simmons in the top 8 of all everyday players. (Think about that. The other 7 are the likes of Trout, Cabrera, Cano, etc.) In theory, league-average hitters at any position are 2.0 WAR players and sure enough, bWAR allocates 2.1 to Simmons for offensive contributions. That means 4.7 of his WAR comes from being an above-average defender.

Let’s break that down further. Using rules of thumb here, 10 runs = a win and 2 hits = a run. That means Simmons must have prevented 94 (4.7 * 10 * 2) more hits than the average shortstop. But that is certainly too low a number because while two hits equals a run across all of baseball, all hits are not created equal. While outfielders can prevent home runs, first basemen triples, and third basemen doubles with slick fielding, shortstops can only prevent singles. So it’s certainly safe to conservatively say that at least 100 singles would need to be prevented to save 47 runs which would equate to 4.7 wins. (In the formula above, we’re changing the “2 hits per run” to “2.17 singles per run”, which we’ll come back to later.)

Across all of baseball last year, shortstops recorded 13,772 assists for an average of 459 per team. While fielding ground balls is a shortstop’s primary weapon to rob batters of a base hit, he also can snare line drives or range into the outfield to catch pop ups. Shortstops did that a total of 3,219 times last year, or 107 times per team, on average. Therefore, the average shortstop prevented 566 batted balls (459 grounders plus 107 fly balls) from turning into singles. (Note that the putout total excludes putouts recorded on force outs – another fielder prevented the batted ball from reaching the outfield.)

By the calculation above, Simmons would need to have a combination of 666 assists and batted ball putouts to justify a 4.7 addition to his WAR. Well, Simmons was the best in the majors last year per this calculation, so his reputation is justified. But his total assists plus batted ball putouts only totaled 616. That’s 50 short of what’s needed. Converting that back to WAR – 50 singles at 2.17 singles per run equals 23 runs, divided by 10 runs a win leaves a substantial shortfall of 2.3 WAR. WAR is somewhat like the Richter scale in that it’s not linear. There are not half as many 8 WAR players as 4 WAR players or one-quarter as many as 2 WAR players. Calling a 4.5 WAR player a 6.8 WAR player is a massive overstatement. It’s akin to calling a bottom-tier All-Star a border-line MVP candidate.

There are a couple of subtle factors that suggest the overstatement is even larger. Run a regression and you’ll find the largest factors contributing to balls hit to the left side of the infield are the handedness of the batter and the groundball tendencies of the pitcher. The Braves faced right-handed batters 60% of the time last year compared to the MLB average of 56% and the Braves staff threw the sixth highest percentage of groundballs in the majors. Those numbers, which suggest Simmons would collect more assists and putouts than the average shortstop, even if he were merely average, are mitigated somewhat by the fact that, thanks to the Braves high-strikeout staff (and other competent fielders) 1.7% less balls (74 total) were hit into the field of play against the Braves than the average team. Still, I suspect those three factors together would ding Simmons versus the average just a bit more.

This exercise isn’t to suggest Andrelton Simmons isn’t a marvelous shortstop. He most certainly is, the best in baseball, in fact. But the value that is being ascribed to his fielding is out of control thanks to the ‘eye test’ that is essentially used to calculate his worth. It’s extremely unlikely that he’s worth anywhere even close to a 7 WAR player.

One final thought: In the NL West essay I took some heavy flak for calling Paul Goldschmidt, at this point of his career, a poor-man’s Ryan Howard. I vehemently stand by that until he hits 58 home runs this year, and two hundred over the next four. Well, if that got you upset (and you know who you are) try this one on: As great as Andrelton Simmons is in the field, he’s a homeless man’s Ozzie Smith. Consider this: Last year, at age 24, Simmons collected a league-leading 499 assists, 40 more than the average team. In his age-25 season, Smith had 621 assists, 90 more than the average team. That’s one tough comp Simmons has this year if he really wants to be considered in Smith’s league defensively.
 
I'm going to take a random player and compare how he hit in various lineup spots in 2012 versus 2013.

This player mainly hit first (367 plate appearance) or second (201 PAs) in 2012. His OPS was .711 batting first and .776 batting second.

Of course it is silly to do this with just one player. You want a big sample and see if 2012 is predictive for 2013 for players who hit better in certain spots of the order.

But what would you expect of this random player in 2013.

Well in 2013 he also hit mainly leadoff (138 PAs) or second (351 PAs).

And the results? Well almost exactly reversed from 2012. His OPS was higher by .094 hitting leadoff.
 
By the calculation above, Simmons would need to have a combination of 666 assists and batted ball putouts to justify a 4.7 addition to his WAR.

Interesting article. I'm going to dwell a little on this sentence because I think it illustrates some of the difficulties with precisely valuing defense. If Simmons knocks a ball down and prevents it from reaching the outfield, and in doing so prevents a base runner from taking an extra base, that's a contribution going beyond assists and putouts. Even more subtle, if he goes out to be the cutoff man on a play from the outfield and the base runner decides not the test his arm when maybe he does go for the extra base if someone else is the cutoff man, then that is another contribution to defense that goes beyond assists and putouts.
 
Interesting article. I'm going to dwell a little on this sentence because I think it illustrates some of the difficulties with precisely valuing defense. If Simmons knocks a ball down and prevents it from reaching the outfield, and in doing so prevents a base runner from taking an extra base, that's a contribution going beyond assists and putouts. Even more subtle, if he goes out to be the cutoff man on a play from the outfield and the base runner decides not the test his arm when maybe he does go for the extra base if someone else is the cutoff man, then that is another contribution to defense that goes beyond assists and putouts.

While certainly true, the effect of those instances is not that great in the grand scheme of things.
 
The spot in the batting order doesn't matter much except for a mental aspect that it might place on the hitter. However, lineup protection does exists in my opinion. It isn't about where you hit, but who hits infront of you or behind you. Chipper Jones believed it and refrenced the difference it made when Texeira was hitting behind him and here is an article that provides some stats.

http://nybaseballdigest.com/2008/12/29/where-should-teixeira-hit-in-the-new-yankee-lineup/

"But, what really stood out was Jones’ power numbers, or slugging percentage, were far superior with Teixeira hitting behind Jones. Before Tex came aboard in 2007, Jones slugged .587, but then slugged .631 after Tex arrived.

Also, in the first several months of 2008, Jones slugged .596 but dropped to .525 after Tex was traded to the Angels."
 
The spot in the batting order doesn't matter much except for a mental aspect that it might place on the hitter. However, lineup protection does exists in my opinion. It isn't about where you hit, but who hits infront of you or behind you. Chipper Jones believed it and refrenced the difference it made when Texeira was hitting behind him and here is an article that provides some stats.

http://nybaseballdigest.com/2008/12/29/where-should-teixeira-hit-in-the-new-yankee-lineup/

"But, what really stood out was Jones’ power numbers, or slugging percentage, were far superior with Teixeira hitting behind Jones. Before Tex came aboard in 2007, Jones slugged .587, but then slugged .631 after Tex arrived.

Also, in the first several months of 2008, Jones slugged .596 but dropped to .525 after Tex was traded to the Angels."

Without even digging into anything, sample size is small.
 
One final thought: In the NL West essay I took some heavy flak for calling Paul Goldschmidt, at this point of his career, a poor-man’s Ryan Howard. I vehemently stand by that until he hits 58 home runs this year, and two hundred over the next four. Well, if that got you upset (and you know who you are) try this one on: As great as Andrelton Simmons is in the field, he’s a homeless man’s Ozzie Smith. Consider this: Last year, at age 24, Simmons collected a league-leading 499 assists, 40 more than the average team. In his age-25 season, Smith had 621 assists, 90 more than the average team. That’s one tough comp Simmons has this year if he really wants to be considered in Smith’s league defensively.

Thanks for posting that article. I didn't care for this part. I'd imagine there were many groundballs hit in Ozzie Smiths time then there are now. Lets see how many chances Ozzie had....
 
One final thought: In the NL West essay I took some heavy flak for calling Paul Goldschmidt, at this point of his career, a poor-man’s Ryan Howard. I vehemently stand by that until he hits 58 home runs this year, and two hundred over the next four. Well, if that got you upset (and you know who you are) try this one on: As great as Andrelton Simmons is in the field, he’s a homeless man’s Ozzie Smith. Consider this: Last year, at age 24, Simmons collected a league-leading 499 assists, 40 more than the average team. In his age-25 season, Smith had 621 assists, 90 more than the average team. That’s one tough comp Simmons has this year if he really wants to be considered in Smith’s league defensively.

Thanks for posting that article. I didn't care for this part. I'd imagine there were many groundballs hit in Ozzie Smiths time then there are now. Lets see how many chances Ozzie had....

It gives what the number of assists per player and compares it to the average team.
 
If there were 50% more chances then that difference of 50 is really only 25 though.

Just don't think its a precise way of saying that Ozzie was better thats all.

Not saying Simmons is better than Ozzie because I never saw him play.
 
While outfielders can prevent home runs, first basemen triples, and third basemen doubles with slick fielding, shortstops can only prevent singles.

This assumption seems problematically reductive to me, and not just respective to shortstops.
 
If there were 50% more chances then that difference of 50 is really only 25 though.

Just don't think its a precise way of saying that Ozzie was better thats all.

Not saying Simmons is better than Ozzie because I never saw him play.

I think you are confused
 
I hope Pastor eventually gets a chance at everday AB's. I'd like to see what type of major league hitter he can become.
 
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