2016 Baseball Hall of Fame Discussion

Knucksie said:
Gold Gloves don't impress that many voters though. It's icing on the cake with other factors. Ozzie Smith was really the only HOFer, who got in mostly for defensive ability. Brooks Robinson hit very well, and was an integral part of championship teams. Bill Mazeroski got in through Veteran's Committee vote.

Andruw Jones's drop-off from last season with Braves and his horrible stint with the Dodgers taints his career. He was never "best of the best" in any offensive category. That's what they want to see. If they'd won in '96, he would've been series MVP. Then he would've needed more outstanding seasons to enhance his candidacy. As it stands, any sentiment for him is Braves fan homerism.
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Fan homerism?

It's not like Andruw was given gold gloves like Jeter, he was arguably the best defensive player in baseball for many years, let alone probably the best defensive centerfielder of all time.

I think his drop off hurts him a little, but if people are saying if he retired after he left the Braves he'd have a better shot, why not just count his prime altogether? Glavine was pretty average/below average the last few years of his career. That didn't hurt him and I think he still makes it even if he didn't get 300.

Andruw doesn't have any stand out counting stats except 434 homers. I do wish him being the best defensive centerfielder ever in an era of juicers should count for something big. We haven't seen a centerfielder play defense like Andruw's prime since him(which was considerably long for a CF). Who knows when we will again.
 
Andrew getting to 500 HRs and winning the MVP in 04 or whatever year that was would have probably sealed the deal.
 
The Don said:
Fan homerism?

It's not like Andruw was given gold gloves like Jeter, he was arguably the best defensive player in baseball for many years, let alone probably the best defensive centerfielder of all time.

I think his drop off hurts him a little, but if people are saying if he retired after he left the Braves he'd have a better shot, why not just count his prime altogether? Glavine was pretty average/below average the last few years of his career. That didn't hurt him and I think he still makes it even if he didn't get 300.

Andruw doesn't have any stand out counting stats except 434 homers. I do wish him being the best defensive centerfielder ever in an era of juicers should count for something big. We haven't seen a centerfielder play defense like Andruw's prime since him(which was considerably long for a CF). Who knows when we will again.
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434 HR's isn't going to impress anybody. Look what happened to the Crime Dog. 500 used to be a magic number, but it's not anymore. As for the defensive aspect, I gave my reasons. It's not disputing his ability and accomplishments, but it's not enough to impress many voters. Ozzie Smith was well-liked by baseball writers and other players in general, but had some post season heroics to put icing on the cake.

This isn't even similar to the Dale Murphy situation, because you guys are going to be very disappointed with the vote totals. Murph absolutely was among the absolute best of the best definitely from '82-'83 when won his MVP's (2-time MVP's usually have very good chances) and was among the NL's most feared hitters for more years. You're just not going to see much support for "best defensive CF" in and of itself to sway many baseball writers. That's why Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux will mention Chipper joining them, because it's already known that Andruw Jones will not.
 
Knucksie said:
434 HR's isn't going to impress anybody. Look what happened to the Crime Dog. 500 used to be a magic number, but it's not anymore. As for the defensive aspect, I gave my reasons. It's not disputing his ability and accomplishments, but it's not enough to impress many voters. Ozzie Smith was well-liked by baseball writers and other players in general, but had some post season heroics to put icing on the cake.

This isn't even similar to the Dale Murphy situation, because you guys are going to be very disappointed with the vote totals. Murph absolutely was among the absolute best of the best definitely from '82-'83 when won his MVP's (2-time MVP's usually have very good chances) and was among the NL's most feared hitters for more years. You're just not going to see much support for "best defensive CF" in and of itself to sway many baseball writers. That's why Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux will mention Chipper joining them, because it's already known that Andruw Jones will not.
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Smoltz did actually stump for Andruw during his long 30 minute HOF speech. It was a brief note but he did rally for Andruw being in the Hall.

Chipper should and probably will stump for Andruw.

We know you're not a fan of WAR, but Andruw being Top 3 in WAR for position players behind Bonds and A-Rod from 1997-2006 is pretty noteworthy.

Andruw had some postseason heroics (besides the homers he had the walk-off walk in the NLCS lol).

The fact is, the older not as saber friendly voters were x'd out from the voting pool (and the a-hole that didn't vote for Maddux and only Jack Morris). The current cream of writers has become more saber friendly. Which is why guys like Mussina are getting good looks and trailing higher even if he doesn't have the counting stats or the "reputation" someone like Pedro or Unit had. 20 years ago a guy with Mussina's resume would be borderline outside looking in. Now I think guy's like Mussina get second looks without 300 wins because of the fact they were great during the PED era.

I hope Andruw makes more than 15% of the ballot and I'd imagine if the writers actually look at his resume he should and over time his case would be stronger.

We didn't have a Platinum Glove in Andruw's time, but you don't think Andruw would have won a few of those? Same as Wilson Defensive Player of the Year (sabermetrics).

As for 434 homers, Hawk has 438 and Jim Rice at 382.
 
Druw has a case beyond Braves homers. He'll have a constituency.

As it stands, any sentiment for him is Braves fan homerism.
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If he does, you'll reconsider this, yeah?
 
This was from a few years ago:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/hall-monitor-the-case-for-andruw-jones/

I think as a Braves fan and having watch nearly every game he played in, or listened to it on the radio... the amount of superlatives from announcers when Andruw would make an amazing catch was dwindling down because they'd use so much.

Andruw deserves a look. Still got robbed of the MVP in 2005! Maybe Pujols gets caught on roids in a report somewhere, and we can lay claim to Andruw's 2005 being clean and legit.

I also don't think it was as much laziness when he went to the Dodgers so much as his knees had given out. He had sacrificed his body a lot during his prime with the Braves. The amount of times he'd dive in shallow center to rob singles. His assists numbers lowered because peopel realized you shouldn't run on his arm. I think people would challenge Vlad and Francoeur hoping they'd overthrow which is why the have higher assist numbers. But Andruw had a canon plus it was accurate (sounds eerily familiar to someone that recently placed shortstop with us). Even his big power years in 2005 and 2006 with his wide stance you could see his knees were giving out. I think the last 5 years or so of his career were just a reflection of his body gone.

Remember he used to play 18 games a year in Montreal and Veterans Stadium both had terrible artificial turf and Andruw used to go all out to save runs and hits. Also the interleague games in Tampa and Toronto when they had artificial turf before MLB decided to do interleague with other divisions (started in 2002).

This one still amazes me. On the artificial turf in Montreal.
 
zitothebrave said:
You can hope. For me Edmonds is 100% a hall of famer. Andruw is a bit better, and his peak fits better, But him and Edmonds are really close. Edmonds was a lot better offensively and no slouch defensively.

And I don't I think the other important thing is that while some of those guys will be off, others will be on.

Starting with the year Druw is in

Rolen, Chipper, Thome, Damon, Halladay, Helton, Rivera, Pettitte (who'll be bounced cause of not being a great steroid player), Jeter, Abreu.

Now, of course not all of those guys are going to get in. SOme will be bounced, and maybe hard, but they're all guys who'll clog the ballot, not to mention guys like Vlad, Manny, and Pudge who'll all be on the ballot, just not sure if they get in.
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FWIW, we have no clue when he will even be eligible - Druw hasn't yet officially filed his retirement papers.
 
clvclv said:
FWIW, we have no clue when he will even be eligible - Druw hasn't yet officially filed his retirement papers.
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Even if he did tomorrow, it'd be 5 years from the last time he played a MLB game.

Glavine recovered from surgery in 2009, the Braves had him rehab all the way up to the last minute then released him and called up Hanson instead. That's why he was eligible the same year as Maddux when Maddux's last game was in 2008. If Smoltz had called it quits, it would have been likely to have seen the Trinity + Bobby in the same year.

And I believe with managers, if you're over 65 you can be in the hall immediately without the waiting period if you're officially retired.

Druw's last game in the majors was 2012 (same as Chippers). He's been trying to make a comeback in the MLB but nobody is asking for his services atm. So he'd be eligible same year. He's been playing in Japan but that won't count as service time when Hall of Fame eligibility comes into play. Same as MLB not acknowledging Ichiro's Japanese statistics which the Hall also likely won't either.
 
The Don said:
Smoltz did actually stump for Andruw during his long 30 minute HOF speech. It was a brief note but he did rally for Andruw being in the Hall.

Chipper should and probably will stump for Andruw.

We know you're not a fan of WAR, but Andruw being Top 3 in WAR for position players behind Bonds and A-Rod from 1997-2006 is pretty noteworthy.

Andruw had some postseason heroics (besides the homers he had the walk-off walk in the NLCS lol).

The fact is, the older not as saber friendly voters were x'd out from the voting pool (and the a-hole that didn't vote for Maddux and only Jack Morris). The current cream of writers has become more saber friendly. Which is why guys like Mussina are getting good looks and trailing higher even if he doesn't have the counting stats or the "reputation" someone like Pedro or Unit had. 20 years ago a guy with Mussina's resume would be borderline outside looking in. Now I think guy's like Mussina get second looks without 300 wins because of the fact they were great during the PED era.

I hope Andruw makes more than 15% of the ballot and I'd imagine if the writers actually look at his resume he should and over time his case would be stronger.

We didn't have a Platinum Glove in Andruw's time, but you don't think Andruw would have won a few of those? Same as Wilson Defensive Player of the Year (sabermetrics).

As for 434 homers, Hawk has 438 and Jim Rice at 382.
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Here's a guy who uses WAR, and presumably is impartial:
http://www.baseballessential.com/news/2015/03/15/why-andruw-jones-isnt-hall-of-fame-worthy/

and another, including defensive metrics:
http://www.gammonsdaily.com/is-andruw-jones-a-hall-of-famer/

It does bring up an interesting point, about how much the newer statistics are used to analyze candidacy. Even with younger voters, it's a tool, not something to exclusively rely upon.
 
I'm not saying he gets in, I'm just saying he'll have a constituency that extends beyond Braves homers.
 
Knucksie said:
Here's a guy who uses WAR, and presumably is impartial:
http://www.baseballessential.com/news/2015/03/15/why-andruw-jones-isnt-hall-of-fame-worthy/

and another, including defensive metrics:
http://www.gammonsdaily.com/is-andruw-jones-a-hall-of-famer/

It does bring up an interesting point, about how much the newer statistics are used to analyze candidacy. Even with younger voters, it's a tool, not something to exclusively rely upon.
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I only read that first article, and that may be one of the weakest arguments I've ever heard. His argument is essentially, 'Andruw Jones is slightly below average for Hall-of-Fame CFs, therefore...he shouldn't be in the HOF'?? That is bizarre. Ok, so there are only 5 HOF CFs with a career OPS lower than Andruw...but there are 5 HOF CFs with a career OPS lower than Andruw. And he undoubtedly played better defense than all of them. So what am I missing here? He seems to compare pretty favorably across the board with Andre Dawson, who was a clear HOFer.

Andruw Jones should be in the HOF. Will he? I seriously doubt it. But he definitely should be. Greatest defensive player in the history of the game, regardless of position. Didn't have the longevity, but he had the brilliance.
 
The Don said:
Andruw had a great 9 year prime. On top of that he's the best defensive centerfielder ever. He will get a lot of love from the purists and saber guys.
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I honestly feel like if Andruw were to get in, there needs to be some type of media hype around it to remind everyone how great he was in his prime. Almost like a movement. It sucks that it's come to that, but I don't trust these writers to do the right thing.

There were some interesting articles on FanGraphs recently about Jim Edmonds and Vlad Guerrero in relation to the Hall of Fame. The argument was Jim Edmonds had equal hitting stats to Fred McGriff, plus defense, so he should have had a shot to get in. And Vlad Guerrero, just doesn't stack up.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/appreciating-jim-edmonds/

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/is-vladimir-guerrero-a-hall-of-famer/
 
The Don said:
Yesterday on MLBN they had a roundtable with Verducci, Heyman, Rosenthal, Gammons, and Sherman. Sherman made the case for Mussina on air saying he had a comparable ERA+ to Christi Mathewson and that took some of the guys by surprise and said it was something they didnt know about moose to be mentioned in the same breathe as Mathewson.
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Which is why the voting is pretty much bogus. People who are voting don't even know all of the stats and in many cases didn't even watch all of the players at length.
 
The Don said:
Speaking of which:

Manny - Failed two drug tests. Don't see how any writer votes him in. This isn't a giving benefit of the doubt thing, this is actual proof.

A-Rod - Admitted to using steroids to Katie Couric, apologized. Years later suspended for involvement with biogenesis. I think a lot of writers will treat him like McGwire.

Clemens - Still gets support. Threw his own trainer under the bus. Probably gets in.

Bonds - Has never definitively been caught. Assumed he took it after 1999 because of body transformation. My think is, testing started after 2002? He was still putting up monstrous numbers after the MLBPA and MLB instated drug testing for PED's.
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The problem is none of those guys are remorseful and by all accounts are not good teammates or good guys. The hall of fame has always seemed to award people who are viewed as good guys. Feel like that will hurt some of these.
 
smootness said:
I only read that first article, and that may be one of the weakest arguments I've ever heard. His argument is essentially, 'Andruw Jones is slightly below average for Hall-of-Fame CFs, therefore...he shouldn't be in the HOF'?? That is bizarre. Ok, so there are only 5 HOF CFs with a career OPS lower than Andruw...but there are 5 HOF CFs with a career OPS lower than Andruw. And he undoubtedly played better defense than all of them. So what am I missing here? He seems to compare pretty favorably across the board with Andre Dawson, who was a clear HOFer.

Andruw Jones should be in the HOF. Will he? I seriously doubt it. But he definitely should be. Greatest defensive player in the history of the game, regardless of position. Didn't have the longevity, but he had the brilliance.
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One thing that you posted before shows that you have some inkling of the voter mentality. That was how certain voters will not vote first ballot for anybody, which surprised me with Jr's vote total. Good for him.

Nevertheless, many if not most of them go by precendents, which you probably know. Why would there suddenly be a movement to elect him, strictly based on being "greatest CF"? They went through that with Willie Mays, who had other credentials. Guys, I tried to show you the mentality. Andruw Jones wasn't a league leader in any important offensive category. The voters ask themselves that question about being the best of the best.

SAV brought up Mussina. Pitching in NY definitely raised his profile, but didn't his vote total just decline? That may or may not be a harbinger. Sutton and Niekro had to wait, even with 300 wins. With Sutton, voters surmised that he was never the staff ace on a lot of really good Dodger teams with Koufax and Drydale in front of him. Niekro had the losses going against him on a lot of really poor Braves teams.

Besides the defense, there's nothing really helping the cause for Andruw Jones. Again, if they'd won in '96, he would've won the series MVP. If he had tailed off dramatically in his last year with the Braves and though his Dodgers contract. You guys pretend like it didn't happen, as if it can just be factored out like an anomoly. It sticks out like a sore thumb. He sucked major ass wind at the end. Voters might well be suspicious of enhancements because of the drop, and he had other off field issues, which was referenced in the other article.
 
Knucksie said:
One thing that you posted before shows that you have some inkling of the voter mentality. That was how certain voters will not vote first ballot for anybody, which surprised me with Jr's vote total. Good for him.

Nevertheless, many if not most of them go by precendents, which you probably know. Why would there suddenly be a movement to elect him, strictly based on being "greatest CF"? They went through that with Willie Mays, who had other credentials. Guys, I tried to show you the mentality. Andruw Jones wasn't a league leader in any important offensive category. The voters ask themselves that question about being the best of the best.

SAV brought up Mussina. Pitching in NY definitely raised his profile, but didn't his vote total just decline? That may or may not be a harbinger. Sutton and Niekro had to wait, even with 300 wins. With Sutton, voters surmised that he was never the staff ace on a lot of really good Dodger teams with Koufax and Drydale in front of him. Niekro had the losses going against him on a lot of really poor Braves teams.

Besides the defense, there's nothing really helping the cause for Andruw Jones. Again, if they'd won in '96, he would've won the series MVP. If he had tailed off dramatically in his last year with the Braves and though his Dodgers contract. You guys pretend like it didn't happen, as if it can just be factored out like an anomoly. It sticks out like a sore thumb. He sucked major ass wind at the end. Voters might well be suspicious of enhancements because of the drop, and he had other off field issues, which was referenced in the other article.
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Mussina's % actually went from 24 to 43. He could be a guy that gets in closer to the 10th ballot. Off the hold overs I certainly see Bagwell getting in next year and hopefully Raines has 1 last push to get over 75%.
 
Mussina should not be in the hall of fame

I love Andruw but he isn't getting into the hall either
 
Another interesting thing to consider, we haven't even retired Andruw's number, which is a travesty. Imagine if he got voted into the Hall of Fame and we hadn't retired his number? Talk about embarassing
 
Don't think that Mussina's going to get in either. It's similar to situation as Hudson. Hudson's Oakland career was absolutely HOF-caliber. His time with Braves is Hall of Very Good.
 
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