2016 Postseason Thread

bravesfanMatt said:
yeah.. Eloy is not a throw in to offset salary. Dude will be a top ten prospect next year most likely.
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I didn't say Eloy "would be a throw in." For me, he's probably the main reason to do the deal from a Braves POV. You might be able to do an Inciarte for Baez deal, 1 for 1 (probably should). So Eloy is the grease the Cubs have to send to get the Braves to take on the money difference (and long term risk) between Heyward, Montero vs taking back Markakis.

I said right away that I "didn't as in DID NOT" think they would do it because they don't appear to have money concerns. They can ride out the Heyward deal, hope he returns to usefulness, (really hope he opts out), and accept the mistake.

However, IF they decide they want the money gone, the only way "I" would consider taking the long term risk associated with Heyward is if I got a premium prospect back....like Eloy.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
I didn't say Eloy "would be a throw in." For me, he's probably the main reason to do the deal from a Braves POV. You might be able to do an Inciarte for Baez deal, 1 for 1 (probably should). So Eloy is the grease the Cubs have to send to get the Braves to take on the money difference (and long term risk) between Heyward, Montero vs taking back Markakis.

I said right away that I "didn't as in DID NOT" think they would do it because they don't appear to have money concerns. They can ride out the Heyward deal, hope he returns to usefulness, (really hope he opts out), and accept the mistake.

However, IF they decide they want the money gone, the only way "I" would consider taking the long term risk associated with Heyward is if I got a premium prospect back....like Eloy.
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I am cool with your proposals. I just read your idea as Eloy is what would need to be kicked in for us to take on Heyward. that is not right. Heyward is still a good player and probably has more potential to improve than to decline at this point. I don't think Eloy is the type of player that a team gives up to clear financial dead weight.

I do think Baez for Ender is a fair trade. One that could benefit both teams. I doubt either team is ready to pull the trigger on that deal.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
I am cool with your proposals. I just read your idea as Eloy is what would need to be kicked in for us to take on Heyward. that is not right. Heyward is still a good player and probably has more potential to improve than to decline at this point. I don't think Eloy is the type of player that a team gives up to clear financial dead weight.

I do think Baez for Ender is a fair trade. One that could benefit both teams. I doubt either team is ready to pull the trigger on that deal.
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I certainly respect your POV. And you are likely right about the Cubs position. However, I have never been a believer in Heyward as a $20+ Million player as many here are. I think the only way he justifies his contract long term is if he gets his bat turned around to AT LEAST a .775 OPS level and gets his elite defense. But the problem with that is that over time you have to expect his defense to diminish which makes even more improvement with the bat necessary to justify the expense.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
I clearly said I didn't think they would do it but it would be the only way "I" would do it.

You guys cherry pick a post so much it makes one almost not want to post anything at all. I guess if it helps you feel superior, be my guest.
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Huh? I'm not trying to feel superior. And I didn't cherry pick anything in the post; the entire post was about that hypothetical deal, which is in no way realistic or possible.

You can post anything you want, but in the interest of discussion, I will call deals I think are unrealistic, unrealistic. They just paid Heyward a ton in FA; they likely still like the things he brings to the table (assuming a bounce-back to normal offensive levels) and certainly are probably not looking to sell him at a severe low point in his value. He's not a salary dump candidate, so you're not just going to get him because you take on his salary, and you're certainly not going to get other things in addition to him for taking on his salary, and especially not if they have to pay part of that.

The rest of it is just crazy. The Cubs almost certainly wouldn't do Baez straight-up for Inciarte. You're definitely not getting Baez and Jimenez for what is basically just Inciarte. Markakis, Jenkins, Whalen, and Ellis offer very little in additional value; those are the typical guys Braves fans like to throw into deals as though it helps, but the very reason we're so willing to throw them in is because they really don't offer much value...to us, or to anyone else.

It's one of the craziest trade ideas I've seen on here. That's just the way I see it. You could maybe do something like Inciarte and Fried for Baez...but if you're trying to get Baez and Jimenez, you're going to be giving up something like Inciarte, Albies, and Anderson. That's without Heyward just thrown in.
 
smootness said:
Huh? I'm not trying to feel superior. And I didn't cherry pick anything in the post; the entire post was about that hypothetical deal, which is in no way realistic or possible.

You can post anything you want, but in the interest of discussion, I will call deals I think are unrealistic, unrealistic. They just paid Heyward a ton in FA; they likely still like the things he brings to the table (assuming a bounce-back to normal offensive levels) and certainly are probably not looking to sell him at a severe low point in his value. He's not a salary dump candidate, so you're not just going to get him because you take on his salary, and you're certainly not going to get other things in addition to him for taking on his salary, and especially not if they have to pay part of that.

The rest of it is just crazy. The Cubs almost certainly wouldn't do Baez straight-up for Inciarte. You're definitely not getting Baez and Jimenez for what is basically just Inciarte. Markakis, Jenkins, Whalen, and Ellis offer very little in additional value; those are the typical guys Braves fans like to throw into deals as though it helps, but the very reason we're so willing to throw them in is because they really don't offer much value...to us, or to anyone else.

It's one of the craziest trade ideas I've seen on here. That's just the way I see it. You could maybe do something like Inciarte and Fried for Baez...but if you're trying to get Baez and Jimenez, you're going to be giving up something like Inciarte, Albies, and Anderson. That's without Heyward just thrown in.
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slow down.. you are way over valuing Baez. He still very risky with his inability to take a walk and high K%. Ender is much more level and a far more of a sure thing. Baez offers more power, but Ender offers more consistency and he plays a more elite position. If the Braves gave up Ender and Fried to get Baez, I would seriously question my GM's ability to make trades.. Baez is riding the Soler effect. Having a good post season, to increase his perceived value..
 
bravesfanMatt said:
slow down.. you are way over valuing Baez. He still very risky with his inability to take a walk and high K%. Ender is much more level and a far more of a sure thing. Baez offers more power, but Ender offers more consistency and he plays a more elite position. If the Braves gave up Ender and Fried to get Baez, I would seriously question my GM's ability to make trades.. Baez is riding the Soler effect. Having a good post season, to increase his perceived value..
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I'm not saying he's worth more than Inciarte right now. I'm saying there's very little chance the Cubs give up Baez for Inciarte alone. Because Inciarte is what he is, and while I love him as a player and what he gives to us, his ceiling isn't at all what Baez's is. And Baez already put up over 3 WAR this year with a mediocre offensive year. They're very similar players right now, except Baez is 2 years younger and has a much higher offensive ceiling. And that fanbase loves him. They're not giving him up just to get Inciarte back.

ETA: I'm also not saying I would give up Inciarte/Fried to get Baez. I wouldn't. I'm just telling you that something like that is probably around what it would take to get him from the Cubs, and even then I don't think they'd do it.
 
smootness said:
Huh? I'm not trying to feel superior. And I didn't cherry pick anything in the post; the entire post was about that hypothetical deal, which is in no way realistic or possible.

You can post anything you want, but in the interest of discussion, I will call deals I think are unrealistic, unrealistic. They just paid Heyward a ton in FA; they likely still like the things he brings to the table (assuming a bounce-back to normal offensive levels) and certainly are probably not looking to sell him at a severe low point in his value. He's not a salary dump candidate, so you're not just going to get him because you take on his salary, and you're certainly not going to get other things in addition to him for taking on his salary, and especially not if they have to pay part of that.

The rest of it is just crazy. The Cubs almost certainly wouldn't do Baez straight-up for Inciarte. You're definitely not getting Baez and Jimenez for what is basically just Inciarte. Markakis, Jenkins, Whalen, and Ellis offer very little in additional value; those are the typical guys Braves fans like to throw into deals as though it helps, but the very reason we're so willing to throw them in is because they really don't offer much value...to us, or to anyone else.

It's one of the craziest trade ideas I've seen on here. That's just the way I see it. You could maybe do something like Inciarte and Fried for Baez...but if you're trying to get Baez and Jimenez, you're going to be giving up something like Inciarte, Albies, and Anderson. That's without Heyward just thrown in.
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Dude
 
Baez is going to be very overrated after this postseason. He is a very good young player, he also had like 10 walks this year. I would not be thrilled about Inciarte straight up for Baez. I do think Eloy is an overpay to balance the two, but I would want another piece.
 
Oklahomabrave said:
Baez is going to be very overrated after this postseason. He is a very good young player, he also had like 10 walks this year. I would not be thrilled about Inciarte straight up for Baez. I do think Eloy is an overpay to balance the two, but I would want another piece.
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I like walks as much as the next guy, but he's also a stud defensively with very good pop and good hitting skills. Not walking can be a detriment, but players can be very good if they have a bunch of other tools besides that when they play defensive premium positions.
 
gilesfan said:
I like walks as much as the next guy, but he's also a stud defensively with very good pop and good hitting skills. Not walking can be a detriment, but players can be very good if they have a bunch of other tools besides that when they play defensive premium positions.
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What has he proven offensively? He had a BABIP-driven season this past year. Still K'd a lot with few walks. Inciarte is clearly the better player at this point. Baez has always struck out an outrageous amount.
 
If Baez K'd a ton in the majors but had good K rate as a minor leaguer, then I would buy into his hype.. but he K'd a lot in the minors too... so I think he will struggle with this his whole career. Not that I wouldn't love to have his talent on my team, I would just be careful what I invest in him.
 
I don't think we are getting Eloy in any deal for any player we have. If I were Theo, that dude would be untouchable.
 
yeezus said:
Inciarte is clearly the better player at this point.
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He's not. I would take 2016 Inciarte over 2016 Baez, but it's at least close.

And his BABIP was .336 after being consistently over .300 in the minors. I would certainly not call that 'BABIP-driven'. The Ks are an issue, but 24% is not bad if his minor-league power shows up. And he has walked more in the past than he did this year.

I think it's safe to say his ceiling is as an elite defender with an .850+ OPS that comes with a good bit of pop.

I've been against Baez in the past, but this year did a lot to convince me he can be a very good major league player for a long time.
 
smootness said:
He's not. I would take 2016 Inciarte over 2016 Baez, but it's at least close.

And his BABIP was .336 after being consistently over .300 in the minors. I would certainly not call that 'BABIP-driven'. The Ks are an issue, but 24% is not bad if his minor-league power shows up. And he has walked more in the past than he did this year.

I think it's safe to say his ceiling is as an elite defender with an .850+ OPS that comes with a good bit of pop.

I've been against Baez in the past, but this year did a lot to convince me he can be a very good major league player for a long time.
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I agree with this as well. I am just not 100% convinced yet. hard to put my finger on it really.
 
yeezus said:
What has he proven offensively? He had a BABIP-driven season this past year. Still K'd a lot with few walks. Inciarte is clearly the better player at this point. Baez has always struck out an outrageous amount.
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Was Inciarte's season BABIP-driven as well? He had a .329 BABIP vs. .336 for Baez.

Baez is two years younger and appears to play elite defensive at the most defensive premium spots. They were pretty close offensive in 2016, but Baez showed raw power at the age of 23.

Inciarte certainly had the better 2016, but again is 2 years older. You guys are focusing too much on strikeouts and walks. If he wasn't an elite defender up the middle, it would be more of a concern. Baez has a ton of similar characteristics as Alfonso Soriano, but with the ability to play defense (and probably not quite the same level of power). He's going to be a very good player, if not a star.

Would people outside of this board take Inciarte over Baez? I don't think so. If they both hit remotely close to each other, you take Baez over Inciarte. I would venture to guess Baez becomes a much better hitter though.
 
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