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- Thread starter sturg33
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On the backs of student loans that now she wants the everyday taxpayer to pay off. Nice for her.
acesfull86
Well-known member
I have several problems with the student loan forgiveness/free college plan that I'm too tired to combine coherently but:
- As sturg said, this plan does nothing to address the underlying causes of why college costs are ballooning. This plan would simply shift the burden from borrowers to taxpayers, but does not get to the root of the issue (I won't pretend to have all the answers here).
- Even though college is expensive, and even though there are plenty of weak degrees at many schools as far as earnings power goes, the ROI on higher education is still pretty damn high. It feels wrong to me that students should reap nearly all the benefits of an investment while incurring little/no cost. Unintended consequences and moral hazard shouldn't be ignored.
- People who already paid back some or all of their debt get royally screwed.
- I did the math and I'd have about $35,000 in debt wiped out under this plan. I don't say this to brag or sound smug, but if the plan would help me, it's casting way too wide a net. Then again, I don't buy that Warren would be able to pay for the plan the way she says, so ultimately I'd expect my tax burden to rise.
- Do we have a real handle on what the actual "crisis" is? We can look at how much student loan debt has grown in raw dollars, or relative to other forms of debt, but that alone doesn't constitute a crisis. How many people are actually struggling? Are those people aware of the various repayment options currently available and have they exhausted them?
- As sturg said, this plan does nothing to address the underlying causes of why college costs are ballooning. This plan would simply shift the burden from borrowers to taxpayers, but does not get to the root of the issue (I won't pretend to have all the answers here).
- Even though college is expensive, and even though there are plenty of weak degrees at many schools as far as earnings power goes, the ROI on higher education is still pretty damn high. It feels wrong to me that students should reap nearly all the benefits of an investment while incurring little/no cost. Unintended consequences and moral hazard shouldn't be ignored.
- People who already paid back some or all of their debt get royally screwed.
- I did the math and I'd have about $35,000 in debt wiped out under this plan. I don't say this to brag or sound smug, but if the plan would help me, it's casting way too wide a net. Then again, I don't buy that Warren would be able to pay for the plan the way she says, so ultimately I'd expect my tax burden to rise.
- Do we have a real handle on what the actual "crisis" is? We can look at how much student loan debt has grown in raw dollars, or relative to other forms of debt, but that alone doesn't constitute a crisis. How many people are actually struggling? Are those people aware of the various repayment options currently available and have they exhausted them?
sturg33
I
The left has turned literally everything into a crisis... just how everyone is a racist.
The hysteria is baffling
acesfull86
Well-known member
And once you define what the crisis is and how far it spreads, we still get back to the how and why it became a crisis and whether or not loan forgiveness and free college for all actually solves the problem.
Is there a crisis because college is simply too expensive? This plan doesn't address the cost problem, it just shifts it to another party.
Is there a crisis because students are picking the "wrong" courses of study? This plan doesn't address that problem and comes with no strings attached on the part of the student.
Is there a crisis because colleges are not properly equipping students to go into the job market and earn? This plan doesn't address the problem of whether our current four year college model is close to optimal.
Seems like this plan enables the current system...the system which has apparently caused a crisis.
Colleges are increasing their tuition because they know students are able to get loans. Its essentially a never ending supply of cash that colleges are robbing from the youth of this nation and will idly sit by while the left tries to push that burden on the taxpayers.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
This is a ****ty take and not getting less ****ty by repetition.
I wonder if we could put our big econ brains to work on what would happen if everyone did the “responsible” thing and got a “math/cis” degree?
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
I think this is a fair criticism. Our higher ed system is a scam. Yet it serves a gatekeeping function in our society that locks people out of social mobility.
sturg33
I
Well that's a great counter argument, but please help me understand why borrowing money and not paying it back is the "responsible" action, and please also tell me why that logic should only apply to student debt
sturg33
I
Let's do.
Demand would dry up.
Price would go down.
Student debt would become less of a crisis.
-----------------------------------
I know you hate markets and supply/demand laws... but that's the answer. The government has told everyone they should go to college, and they've guaranteed them the means to do it. Demand has skyrocketed. Costs have skyrocketed.
The diploma has become less valuable. Especially diplomas that don't have a tangible skills that the real-world market is paying for. That means students get less money for their gender studies degrees, and they struggle to pay back the debt. Many people are doubling down on the irresponsible decision by going to graduate school, further increasing their debt, all while spending valuable years out of the workforce not earning money.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Straw man all you like, but there are loads of people with “useful” degrees who are still smothered by student loan debt. My wife has a law degree and a masters in Public Administration and is still paying student loans and will be for quite a while. The former Ms. Julio has an accounting degree and is likewise still paying off student loans. There’s a finite supply of well-paid jobs. Having a “useful” degree is more or less a guarantee that you’ll be able to find a decent job and stay employed, but not much beyond that.
There’s significant market and societal pressure to get college degrees, as, like I said, it serves a gatekeeper function in society. Parents’ educational attainment is still the strongest correlation to children’s future financial success. It’s a broader societal ill, not a question of irresponsibility.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Let's do.
Demand would dry up.
Price would go down.
Student debt would become less of a crisis.
-----------------------------------
I know you hate markets and supply/demand laws... but that's the answer. The government has told everyone they should go to college, and they've guaranteed them the means to do it. Demand has skyrocketed. Costs have skyrocketed.
The diploma has become less valuable. Especially diplomas that don't have a tangible skills that the real-world market is paying for. That means students get less money for their gender studies degrees, and they struggle to pay back the debt. Many people are doubling down on the irresponsible decision by going to graduate school, further increasing their debt, all while spending valuable years out of the workforce not earning money.
“Price would go down.”
Ok, so turn all those folks into STEM majors. What happens to that job market and the value of that diploma?
sturg33
I
Sheesh you do this all the time. You pull out an out of context sentence from a long post to derail the conversation elsewhere. My original point was that it's irresponsible to take out tons of debt for a degree that is worthless (unless you have a plan to pay for it).
"Price would go down" because people would stop going to school for worthless degrees. Not that everyone in college floods into CIS degress.
But you are right... if everyone in America did that, the laws of supply and demand would take effect there just as it has in the broader bachelor degree situation. I'm glad you agree.
By the way, the unemployment rate of math majors and CIS majors is 0%.
You can obtain any of these degrees at a state or city college. I went to school for accounting at Queens college while working full time. It takes longer but typically most jobs have a tuition reimbursement program at around 2500 per year. I worked at a bank for effs sake. A job they don't even look for college degrees to start out at.
Fortunately, school is easy as long as you spend 30-60 minutes a day reading. Had a 3.9 GPA at Queens for accounting and was recruited right out of school to PwC. Then a few years of experience in and your off to the races to do whatever you want at 6 figure jobs. This is not rocket science especially for accounting/finance/business degrees. There are tremendous amounts of jobs out there that are well paying.
So this idea that teenagers need to go into debt for a 'worthless' degree at a private institution to be successful is complete bunk. If you weren't born with the mental aptitude to understand a mathematical based science then you have to make a hard decision to enter the work force earlier either via trade or starting at a terrible place but working your ass off through the company.
sturg33
I
Uh it's certainly not irresponsible to pay for a product you use.