2021 BA Top 100

[DirkPiggler]

To be clear....

Folks are declaring Pache ready based on 25 PAs where he posted a .650 OPS?

Eye test...obviously too small of a sample size to make the call.

It's more about the actions the front office took. Seems like it would be hard to claim he's not ready when they could've chosen a "proven" entity in Inciarte for CF once Duvall went down.

I'm perfectly fine with keeping him down. Great teams stay that way because they don't deviate from their processes. I think AA will make the right call...if he brings Pache up to start the year it's probably a sign that they think the new CBA will render the service time argument moot.

 

[clvclv]

To be clear....

Folks are declaring Pache ready based on 25 PAs where he posted a .650 OPS?

Yes and no.

Those people declaring Pache's ready have at least seen 25 PAs, right?

You've consistently classified Waters as a question mark at best (and not many people will argue that) but the question remains - how many times have you seen him step in the box against advanced pitching?

To be fair, most of those people you corner and talk down to have seen Pache more often than you've seen Waters.

Who's right? Who knows???

Pache is "ready" because he's the best option - would you prefer Ender or Waters? Follow the numbers as "the gospel" at your own risk - Votto reached base at a better than .350 clip last year...is anybody interested in him?

 

[NYCBrave]

Yes and no.

Those people declaring Pache's ready have at least seen 25 PAs, right?

You've consistently classified Waters as a question mark at best (and not many people will argue that) but the question remains - how many times have you seen him step in the box against advanced pitching?

To be fair, most of those people you corner and talk down to have seen Pache more often than you've seen Waters.

Who's right? Who knows???

Pache is "ready" because he's the best option - would you prefer Ender or Waters? Follow the numbers as "the gospel" at your own risk - Votto reached base at a better than .350 clip last year...is anybody interested in him?

That's thing. Currently on the roster we do not have a better option. There is still a few weeks for AA to add to the roster though, and maybe add a player who would make us keeping Pache down for a few months.

 

[mfree80]

To be clear....

Folks are declaring Pache ready based on 25 PAs where he posted a .650 OPS?

We were all excited to get a glimpse of Pache in the playoffs, We were encouraged by what we saw. The Sample Size was obviously small, but the approach seemed solid and he didn’t look scared or overwhelmed.

The point people are making is that the Braves chose him ahead of some other obvious choices then. That would seem to make it difficult to choose those same guys ahead of him this spring.

Still might happen, but it would seem a bit curious.

 

[nsacpi]

If they brought back Duvall, they would have the option of playing him in right and moving Acuna to center.

I'm pretty sure Plan A is to have Pache in center. But it's always good to have a Plan B and a Plan C.

 

[Tapate50]

Pache is starting in AAA. I have little doubt at that.

 

[Enscheff]

Yes and no.

Those people declaring Pache's ready have at least seen 25 PAs, right?

You've consistently classified Waters as a question mark at best (and not many people will argue that) but the question remains - how many times have you seen him step in the box against advanced pitching?

To be fair, most of those people you corner and talk down to have seen Pache more often than you've seen Waters.

Who's right? Who knows???

Pache is "ready" because he's the best option - would you prefer Ender or Waters? Follow the numbers as "the gospel" at your own risk - Votto reached base at a better than .350 clip last year...is anybody interested in him?

I declared Pache a far superior prospect to Waters (who I have literally said is a good prospect at least 10 times) based on every stat and scouting report we have available for their careers, which is miles different than claiming someone is MLB ready on opening day based on seeing 25 PAs on TV.

Pache may be ready, but anyone claiming that to be the case because “he wasn’t scared” during a handful of PAs is being foolish. It’s the same foolishness they said about Riley early, even after I explained why he has massive red flags despite the unsustainable early results. Same foolishness when they still thought Camargo “needed a chance” after I showed exactly why he didn’t deserve more PAs.

I have no idea where you were attempting to go with that Votto detour.

 

[Enscheff]

We were all excited to get a glimpse of Pache in the playoffs, We were encouraged by what we saw. The Sample Size was obviously small, but the approach seemed solid and he didn’t look scared or overwhelmed.

The point people are making is that the Braves chose him ahead of some other obvious choices then. That would seem to make it difficult to choose those same guys ahead of him this spring.

Still might happen, but it would seem a bit curious.

It’s important to realize why Pache was added to the playoff roster. By this point in the season, Duvall was tabbed the everyday guy, and they needed a complement to Markakis. That certainly wasn’t going to be another LHH in Ender, so Pache was added. He then was forced into action when Duvall went down.

The fact Camargo was then added rather than Ender, which forced Pache to start vs RHP is more damning about Ender than it is an endorsement of Pache. The calculus must have been that Camargo (essentially a RHH only) at 3b plus Riley caddying for Markakis was still better than another LHH in Ender.

I suspect AA will add some more OF options, and Pache will replace Ender or another OF on the roster after getting some time in AAA. He may force the issue in ST though. I’d like to see at least 1 LHH option added, and then another option added if the DH is in play.

 

[mfree80]

It’s important to realize why Pache was added to the playoff roster. By this point in the season, Duvall was tabbed the everyday guy, and they needed a complement to Markakis. That certainly wasn’t going to be another LHH in Ender, so Pache was added. He then was forced into action when Duvall went down.

The fact Camargo was then added rather than Ender, which forced Pache to start vs RHP is more damning about Ender than it is an endorsement of Pache. The calculus must have been that Camargo (essentially a RHH only) at 3b plus Riley caddying for Markakis was still better than another LHH in Ender.

I suspect AA will add some more OF options, and Pache will replace Ender or another OF on the roster after getting some time in AAA. He may force the issue in ST though. I’d like to see at least 1 LHH option added, and then another option added if the DH is in play.

You are correct. My only point is that they chose Pache over Ender in the playoffs. It would be curious to choose Ender over Pache to start the year this spring. Bringing in another option is certainly possible. Gaming his service time is also possible.

I don’t know what they will do. I just liked what I saw from Pache.

 

[Enscheff]

You are correct. My only point is that they chose Pache over Ender in the playoffs. It would be curious to choose Ender over Pache to start the year this spring. Bringing in another option is certainly possible. Gaming his service time is also possible.

I don’t know what they will do. I just liked what I saw from Pache.

Adding Pache to the playoff roster didn’t cost them anything in terms of service time or added salary. Adding him to the opening day roster costs them all those things, especially if it requires them to simply cut Ender loose.

I suspect we are about to hear an epic BSoML story about Ender very soon, complete with how much better a typical off season will benefit him, and that will partially be used to explain away his awful 2020 season. The best overall use of resources is probably to see what Ender has early and then dump him in favor of Pache after a month or so.

 

[Carp]

To be clear....

Folks are declaring Pache ready based on 25 PAs where he posted a .650 OPS?

Yeah, I didn't see anything either. It's nice that he didn't look overmatched, but I'm not drawing anything from a handful of post season at bats.

Next they'll say Bryse Wilson looks like a budding ace in 2021 because he smoked the Dodgers.

 

[Carp]

We were all excited to get a glimpse of Pache in the playoffs, We were encouraged by what we saw. The Sample Size was obviously small, but the approach seemed solid and he didn’t look scared or overwhelmed.

The point people are making is that the Braves chose him ahead of some other obvious choices then. That would seem to make it difficult to choose those same guys ahead of him this spring.

Still might happen, but it would seem a bit curious.

I don't pretend to know the exact reason Pache was chosen, but our options were basically him or Ender. So it isn't like he had much competition. Pache is the superior defender and was a better fit as far as replacing a RH hitter with a RH hitter.

 

[clvclv]

Yeah, I didn't see anything either. It's nice that he didn't look overmatched, but I'm not drawing anything from a handful of post season at bats.

Next they'll say Bryse Wilson looks like a budding ace in 2021 because he smoked the Dodgers.

Lots of folks tend to go a bit overboard in the moment - or at the very least get a bit too excited and don't say "he's really not going to be this good all the time" - they're fans. Tom Brady's not always as good as he was last night, but he's still the GOAT.

The problem with becoming so engrossed in the numbers is that you lose sight of the fact that it's a game, played and managed by humans, that simply doesn't work out like the computer model expects it to at times.

I seriously question whether some people are actually capable of simply sitting back and enjoying watching a game at times. To each their own, but those who can't are missing some of the best things in life. Spending 3 hours *itching about how a Pitcher just isn't this good while he's spinning a no-no is rather ridiculous - just enjoy the day and the fact that you got to see him on the day he was THAT GOOD.

 

[thewupk]

The obvious choice is to wait a few weeks on Pache.

 

[Tapate50]

The obvious choice is to wait a few weeks on Pache.

Agree.

Last thing you want is a guy that plays crazy defense to come up and struggle with the bat and become a S2 early. If the bat never materializes he'd be a candidate to not offer arby way too soon.

 

[thewupk]

Agree.

Last thing you want is a guy that plays crazy defense to come up and struggle with the bat and become a S2 early. If the bat never materializes he'd be a candidate to not offer arby way too soon.

I'm not concerned with S2 status honestly. Pache has 22 days of service time so he's going to hit ARB status going into the 2024 season and potential FA into the 2027 season. To change any of that he would need to be down 2 months to make him FA eligible in 2028 and past the ASB to change arbitration to 2025. I don't think he stays down that long.

My line of thinking is we are paying Ender regardless. Barring some kind of trade I'd give him ST and a few weeks at the start of the season to see what he looks like. If he looks like the old Ender we can ride that out and delay Pache as long as possible. If Ender is garbage then you bring Pache up to start in center and maybe keep Ender around as a D replacement for Ozuna depending on how Ender's defense looks. If that's gone too then you simply DFA him.

 

[clvclv]

I'm not concerned with S2 status honestly. Pache has 22 days of service time so he's going to hit ARB status going into the 2024 season and potential FA into the 2027 season. To change any of that he would need to be down 2 months to make him FA eligible in 2028 and past the ASB to change arbitration to 2025. I don't think he stays down that long.

My line of thinking is we are paying Ender regardless. Barring some kind of trade I'd give him ST and a few weeks at the start of the season to see what he looks like. If he looks like the old Ender we can ride that out and delay Pache as long as possible. If Ender is garbage then you bring Pache up to start in center and maybe keep Ender around as a D replacement for Ozuna depending on how Ender's defense looks. If that's gone too then you simply DFA him.

Had mentioned a DFA for him too multiple times (quite a while back actually) - just not sure that will happen.

With everyone trying to cut costs everywhere no one's likely going to claim him, and most teams probably won't be interested - even if AA pays a chunk of the money - if they won't take him now. If he's not doing enough to keep Almonte from becoming the 4th OF after they call Pache up, he might not even get picked up for the minimum after clearing waivers.

If all you're going to save if someone desperate picks him up is a few hundred K, you might as well keep him around in case someone gets hurt and to at least have a warm body to lessen the temptation to call Waters up later on unless he's REALLY ready and has earned it.

 

[Southcack77]

The front office would have a hard time selling "he needs more time" after 1) they chose him over Inciarte as the starting CF for the post-season and 2) the way he performed on the biggest stage. If it were to come down to a grievance, those would be points that would hurt the team's case.

Inciarte was terrible at the plate and in the field last season so it didn't necessarily take a lot of confidence in Pache to carry him instead.

 

[Southcack77]

Yes and no.

Those people declaring Pache's ready have at least seen 25 PAs, right?

You've consistently classified Waters as a question mark at best (and not many people will argue that) but the question remains - how many times have you seen him step in the box against advanced pitching?

To be fair, most of those people you corner and talk down to have seen Pache more often than you've seen Waters.

Who's right? Who knows???

Pache is "ready" because he's the best option - would you prefer Ender or Waters? Follow the numbers as "the gospel" at your own risk - Votto reached base at a better than .350 clip last year...is anybody interested in him?

I'd be happy to have Votto in the lineup at a reasonable price if it made sense position wise (which it doesn't)

 

[Southcack77]

Had mentioned a DFA for him too multiple times (quite a while back actually) - just not sure that will happen.

With everyone trying to cut costs everywhere no one's likely going to claim him, and most teams probably won't be interested - even if AA pays a chunk of the money - if they won't take him now. If he's not doing enough to keep Almonte from becoming the 4th OF after they call Pache up, he might not even get picked up for the minimum after clearing waivers.

If all you're going to save if someone desperate picks him up is a few hundred K, you might as well keep him around in case someone gets hurt and to at least have a warm body to lessen the temptation to call Waters up later on unless he's REALLY ready and has earned it.

If Dexter Fowler is only worth 1.5m on the market, then Ender is absolutely worthless.