8/21 GDT: Seattle Mariners (63-62) @ Atlanta Braves (55-67)

CJ9 said:
I'm guessing you said the same thing about Blair, Wisler, Newcomb, Sims, Folty when they were in the minors.
Click to expand...

Does this mean you are putting Newcomb into the category of not a good pitcher already?

Braves have 6 top 100 pitching prospects right now in the minors. [Gohara/Allard/Wright/Soroka/Wentz/Touki].

To act like the pitching rebuild failed when all of our elite pitching is still in the minors is odd and reaks of anti FO bias.
 
CJ9 said:
I'm guessing you said the same thing about Blair, Wisler, Newcomb, Sims, Folty when they were in the minors.
Click to expand...

Are we giving up on Newcomb and Folty? Oh, ok. Probably super wise to do so.
The other guys listed don't, and never did, have the upside that the guys currently in the minors have. But nuance is overrated.
 
thethe said:
Does this mean you are putting Newcomb into the category of not a good pitcher already?

Braves have 6 top 100 pitching prospects right now in the minors. [Gohara/Allard/Wright/Soroka/Wentz/Touki].

To act like the pitching rebuild failed when all of our elite pitching is still in the minors is odd and reaks of anti FO bias.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm putting the guy who couldn't throw strikes in the minors and currently sporting a 5.43 BB/9 into the category of not a good pitcher. Not really sure how to spin that one any other way.

The Braves do have 6 top 100 pitching prospects, which is nice. Blair, Wisler, Newcomb, Sims, Folty were all top 100 prospects and have not developed well. People were saying the same things about them when they were prospects.
 
CJ9 said:
Yes, I'm putting the guy who couldn't throw strikes in the minors and currently sporting a 5.43 BB/9 into the category of not a good pitcher. Not really sure how to spin that one any other way.

The Braves do have 6 top 100 pitching prospects, which is nice. Blair, Wisler, Newcomb, Sims, Folty were all top 100 prospects and have not developed well. People were saying the same things about them when they were prospects.
Click to expand...

Those guys were not even close to the prospects that we have now. Look at the performance in the upper levels. Look at the K numbers. Again - this is just another example of people trying to take stabs at the FO. If in 3 years the pitching sucks then fire the whole FO.
 
Super said:
Are we giving up on Newcomb and Folty? Oh, ok. Probably super wise to do so.
The other guys listed don't, and never did, have the upside that the guys currently in the minors have. But nuance is overrated.
Click to expand...

Alrighty here.

So Folty becomes a free agent in 2022. He's arb eligible starting next year I believe. If he lives up to his potential to match his stuff, he's gonna demand big money. We're not a team in that position to be offering money like that to hard throwing pitchers who could get injured at any moment. Not everyone is a Verlander with hard throwing stuff and durability. With that said, do we trade him before 2021 season where he'd be attractive with 2 more years of control, or 2022 season essentially being a one year rental. Again, this also assumes Folty doesn't get injured.

I love the guy's stuff when he's on. But he's been starting for us for roughly 3 years now... so the clock is ticking and I hope he figures it out.
 
thethe said:
Those guys were not even close to the prospects that we have now. Look at the performance in the upper levels. Look at the K numbers. Again - this is just another example of people trying to take stabs at the FO. If in 3 years the pitching sucks then fire the whole FO.
Click to expand...

So 2020 is now the year?
 
thethe said:
Those guys were not even close to the prospects that we have now. Look at the performance in the upper levels. Look at the K numbers. Again - this is just another example of people trying to take stabs at the FO. If in 3 years the pitching sucks then fire the whole FO.
Click to expand...

You can tell yourself whatever makes you feel better, but --

Newcomb was up to #24 on Baseball America
Wisler was up to #34 on Baseball America
Blair was up to #40 on Baseball America
Sims was up to #57 on Baseball America
Folty was up to #59 on Baseball America

Be optimistic and expect this group to be better all you want, but to say they aren't even close to the prospects we have now is just completely off base.
 
I get sad everytime I see Andrelton's WAR and then see Newcomb pitch.

I can't believe we unloaded a contract friendly elite player for Newcomb... we're willing to be patient with Newcomb but we gave up on Tron so quickly.
 
CJ9 said:
You can tell yourself whatever makes you feel better, but --

Newcomb was up to #24 on Baseball America
Wisler was up to #34 on Baseball America
Blair was up to #40 on Baseball America
Sims was up to #57 on Baseball America
Folty was up to #59 on Baseball America

Be optimistic and expect this group to be better all you want, but to say they aren't even close to the prospects we have now is just completely off base.
Click to expand...

The upsides aren't even close.
What if Allard, Soroka, and Gohara end up in the top-20?
Also I'd prefer to use someone besides BA. But even still.
 
Forever Fredi said:
I get sad everytime I see Andrelton's WAR and then see Newcomb pitch.

I can't believe we unloaded a contract friendly elite player for Newcomb... we're willing to be patient with Newcomb but we gave up on Tron so quickly.
Click to expand...

That's the source of a lot of the disappointment with Newcomb. Not really his performance, but the fact that we gave up a great player to get him.

Too many people are writing Newcomb off at this point. Sure, his walk levels are unsustainable right now, but he's 13 starts into his MLB career. He has plenty of positive attributes to go along with the poor walk rate as well - good K/9 and HR rate, potentially elite CB to go along with adequate velocity on his FB to name a few. We'd be stupid if we weren't concerned about the walk rate, but it's equally idiotic to declare him a failure at this point. If the BB/9 is still hovering around 5 at this time next year then that's a different story.
 
Super said:
The upsides aren't even close.
What if Allard, Soroka, and Gohara end up in the top-20?
Also I'd prefer to use someone besides BA. But even still.
Click to expand...

BA is highly regarded. But I guess we choose not to agree with opinions that don't align with ours.

To act like that group wasn't highly regarded is false. There is no other way around it. And if you go back and look at those threads you will have people like thethe praising those highly touted prospects at the time. Now it's they just were never that good and our current prospects are so much better.
 
DirkPiggler said:
That's the source of a lot of the disappointment with Newcomb. Not really his performance, but the fact that we gave up a great player to get him.

Too many people are writing Newcomb off at this point. Sure, his walk levels are unsustainable right now, but he's 13 starts into his MLB career. He has plenty of positive attributes to go along with the poor walk rate as well - good K/9 and HR rate, potentially elite CB to go along with adequate velocity on his FB to name a few. We'd be stupid if we weren't concerned about the walk rate, but it's equally idiotic to declare him a failure at this point. If the BB/9 is still hovering around 5 at this time next year then that's a different story.
Click to expand...

The BB/9 is a huge concern and history isn't kind to pitchers that live in that range. Newk could buck the trend but I'm not counting on it.
 
thewupk said:
BA is highly regarded. But I guess we choose not to agree with opinions that don't align with ours.
Click to expand...

truly the last person who should be saying this. king of "the SSS that agrees with me is great. the one that doesn't is a SSS, impossible to judge." Ok.

thewupk said:
To act like that group wasn't highly regarded is false. There is no other way around it. And if you go back and look at those threads you will have people like thethe praising those highly touted prospects at the time. Now it's they just were never that good and our current prospects are so much better.
Click to expand...

i think the upside with our current group in the minors is clearly higher. I haven't used BA as my main source in years. I wonder where FG had these guys. I didn't say those other guys weren't regarded well, at all. But again, if you want to dismiss nuance, be my guest.
 
Super said:
truly the last person who should be saying this. king of "the SSS that agrees with me is great. the one that doesn't is a SSS, impossible to judge." Ok.

i think the upside with our current group in the minors is clearly higher. I haven't used BA as my main source in years. I wonder where FG had these guys. I didn't say those other guys weren't regarded well, at all. But again, if you want to dismiss nuance, be my guest.
Click to expand...

Right. I'll be the first to dismiss those that are SSS believers but you know that.

FG has had several different prospect guys in the last few years so whatever opinion was given on their site then wouldn't be the same as now.

I would tend to agree that our current group has a higher ceiling. That still doesn't mean the previous group wasn't good, wasn't close, or hasn't busted hard either. But you can think the current group is special if you want and will buck the trend that plagues all minor league pitchers.
 
thewupk said:
Right. I'll be the first to dismiss those that are SSS believers but you know that.

FG has had several different prospect guys in the last few years so whatever opinion was given on their site then wouldn't be the same as now.

I would tend to agree that our current group has a higher ceiling. That still doesn't mean the previous group wasn't good, wasn't close, or hasn't busted hard either. But you can think the current group is special if you want and will buck the trend that plagues all minor league pitchers.
Click to expand...

What hurts is the previous group was acquired by using fantastic assets like Upton, Gattis, Simmons, and Kimbrel.

I'd also lean toward putting Fried in the bust camp as well. But we need to see more
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top