AJC: Braves Could Go Into Rebuild Mode, Aim Toward 2017

[cajunrevenge]

I don't understand how a franchise can commit to a rebuild but say Kimbrel won't be traded. The best closer in baseball would bring back a ton of young talent, especially to a team that might not even be trying to win for the next year or two. What's the value of a great closer when you're trying to rebuild?

Kimbrel is an asset who teaches peak value mid season. The offseason is flooded with free agent closers but once the season starts and some of those closers flame out teams with dreams of world series will pay extra to fix a closer problem. Imagine when we had Reitsma as closer, what would you have paid then to get someone like Kimbrel.

 

[jpx7]

It would suck, but if they are going to do it....do it right.

Doing it "right" means, at the very least, unloading Kimbrel and Gattis for prospects at this point, as well. Don't punt halfway.

 

[jpx7]

And what's wrong with the wild card anyways? They both played in the WS this year.

^^^

 

[VirginiaBrave]

It's really dirty how they signed these young players with the idea that we were going to be competitive. Doesn't bother me in regards to the ones who helped us fail, but players like Freeman and Kimbrel and Teheran deserve better than this. So do the fans.

Wouldn't quite describe it as "dirty" as Frank is gone. We need to rebuild for lack of a better word although I think it a bit to drastic a word. There are a lot of overrated talent on this club. The Uptons, Heyward, Gattis, Johnson and Simmons(offensively) head that list. Freeman, CK, Wood, and JT are the only untouchables. Again the Braves draw interesting parallels to the Dallas Cowboys. The Braves find themselves where the Cowboys did in the early days of the Romo era. They think they have playoff caliber talent but on the field but its hit and miss. When Jones decided to start building from the line out it sucked for a couple years, but now the ol is right and they look headed for the playoffs. Conversely the Braves need to fix the top of the order at almost any cost. If they can do that even if it costs two of Heyward, Justin or Gattis it will be a step forward. I am not giving Heyward away just yet, remember Bobby is back and he will fight hard to keep him.

 

[jpx7]

Wouldn't quite describe it as "dirty" as Frank is gone.

I don't mean to single you out on this measure, by any means, but I like that Wren's boss(es) have expertly skated away from any blame for a whole mountain of things.

 

[jason27nc]

May as well trade Kimbrel as well. No reason to need the best closer in baseball after you get rid of most of your best players. Plus Fredi will use him wrong in the 15 saves opportunities he has next year anyway.

 

[zitothebrave]

If we make the right moves, we're not that far away from competing for a championship. At least wait and see if we're in the race before we go into rebuild mode.

If we don't have an epic Spetember collapse we're in the championship mix. Not saying we'd win, but once you punch your ticket to the dance, who knows what can happen.

 

[UNCBlue012]

Honestly, I'll be furious if we aim for a rebuild. After all of the resigning of players, we need to keep going after it. Trade one of Gattis, Justin or Jason and try to make this team better. Level off the bench, sign (or trade for) a solid pitcher and keep it going. We won 96 games two years ago. We have a really bad year... it doesn't mean we 100% will have another. Let's have some fun, dammit.

 

[Tapate50]

Honestly, I'll be furious if we aim for a rebuild. After all of the resigning of players, we need to keep going after it. Trade one of Gattis, Justin or Jason and try to make this team better. Level off the bench, sign (or trade for) a solid pitcher and keep it going. We won 96 games two years ago. We have a really bad year... it doesn't mean we 100% will have another. Let's have some fun, dammit.

I don't think they are discussing a Astros type rebuild here.

It is amazing to me how many people were giving up before the halfway mark claiming that this team was fatally flawed the entire year because of how the offense was assembled, and now there are a ton that think it will fix itself with the magical offseason upon us.

I think they saw how FW tried to do things, and think it was flat out incorrect and want to get as much ammo to set us up like the Giants who have been wildly successful with minor offensive pieces and pitching out of their ears. Hart keeps saying young high end starters with control are their focus, which is interesting because we have three of them on the roster at this point. I think he wants a badass starting 5 and whatever we get from good OBP serviceable position players is gravy.

 

[Dalyn]

Who rebuilds one of the youngest teams in baseball with talent like Teheran, Heyward, Justin, Gattis, Wood, Kimbrel, Freeman, Simmons, etc etc? What a joke.

 

[zitothebrave]

I don't think there's a way you can trade one of them and make the team better. You just listed 3 of our 4 best players. 5 best if SImmons starts hitting again.

Best move is to punt Johnson and go after a 3B in the market or find a lefty 3B who can hit righties for Johnson. Unftortunately that FA market is basically bare when you're looking ofr lefties, only KJ is a worthwhileish player who's a lefty and plays 3B. While I'd love him back as a bench player, we're not gonna cross that bridge so there's no point even musing over it. Stephen Drew presents an option, coming off a miserable year, maybe he'd be willing to sign to rebuild his value, that being said, some other team would offer him more PT so we'd likely be out. In the end our best bet to fix 3B is to sign Headley assuming the price doesn't go insane. Say we can get him for 4/50, then trade Johnson for whatever bad of Peanuts we can get, our net gain next 2 years is only like 9M total, very doable, and even after his down year, we should have no issues finding someone to take Johnson based on him bouncing back.

 

[Dalyn]

find a lefty 3B who can hit righties for Johnson.

That's the answer for that particular problem. We need Johnson's bat against lefties (especially if we trade Gattis or Justin), and I think we need his fire. Part of the reason we saw him struggle is that the team actively tried to put that out all year (and succeeded far too well).

 

[Tapate50]

I don't think there's a way you can trade one of them and make the team better. You just listed 3 of our 4 best players. 5 best if SImmons starts hitting again.

Best move is to punt Johnson and go after a 3B in the market or find a lefty 3B who can hit righties for Johnson. Unftortunately that FA market is basically bare when you're looking ofr lefties, only KJ is a worthwhileish player who's a lefty and plays 3B. While I'd love him back as a bench player, we're not gonna cross that bridge so there's no point even musing over it. Stephen Drew presents an option, coming off a miserable year, maybe he'd be willing to sign to rebuild his value, that being said, some other team would offer him more PT so we'd likely be out. In the end our best bet to fix 3B is to sign Headley assuming the price doesn't go insane. Say we can get him for 4/50, then trade Johnson for whatever bad of Peanuts we can get, our net gain next 2 years is only like 9M total, very doable, and even after his down year, we should have no issues finding someone to take Johnson based on him bouncing back.

Any proposition involving adding Chase Headley needs to begin with a way to unload BJ and his contract. Without doing that, I think that proposition of adding Headley has ZERO legs. JMO.

 

[Julio3000]

That's the answer for that particular problem. We need Johnson's bat against lefties (especially if we trade Gattis or Justin), and I think we need his fire. Part of the reason we saw him struggle is that the team actively tried to put that out all year (and succeeded far too well).

Yeah, getting a platoon partner for CJ should be one of the easiest and most cost-effective fixes that the FO can implement.

 

[clvclv]

I don't think they are discussing a Astros type rebuild here.

It is amazing to me how many people were giving up before the halfway mark claiming that this team was fatally flawed the entire year because of how the offense was assembled, and now there are a ton that think it will fix itself with the magical offseason upon us.

I think they saw how FW tried to do things, and think it was flat out incorrect and want to get as much ammo to set us up like the Giants who have been wildly successful with minor offensive pieces and pitching out of their ears. Hart keeps saying young high end starters with control are their focus, which is interesting because we have three of them on the roster at this point. I think he wants a badass starting 5 and whatever we get from good OBP serviceable position players is gravy.

Agreed. JS, Bobby, and Hart have always operated from the stance that I want to make the pitching staff as bulletproof as is humanly possible - with an excess of SPs tucked away in AAA and AA. If the monster staff you create stays healthy, turn some of the excess into a bulletproof pen.

Take out Andruw and Chipper, and the Braves have only had 13 seasons where someone hit more HRs than J-Up hit this season (Galarraga in 1998, Javy in 2003, Justice in 1993, Sheffield in 2003, Gant in 1993, Uggla in 2011, Klesko in 1996, Javy in 1998, McGriff in 1994, Gant in 1990, Gant in 1991, LaRoche in 2002, and Drew in 2004) since the run started.

 

[Nerfherders]

A rebuild of this team is not a good idea. On Sept 1st we were 3 games back of the Giants and a half game ahead of the Pirates. This is a team that merely needs a tweak here or there to get over the top. 90 wins is all we need. Just get in and anything can happen!

 

[Millwood1Hitter]

A rebuild of this team is not a good idea. On Sept 1st we were 3 games back of the Giants and a half game ahead of the Pirates. This is a team that merely needs a tweak here or there to get over the top. 90 wins is all we need. Just get in and anything can happen!

Pretty hard to tweak when again almost 1/3, that's right 1/3 of our projected payroll budget will be tied up in dead weight in Uggla and BJ, and a complimentary player in CJ. It's not an easy fix, and then combine that with the pending FA of Justin Upton and Heyward on the horizon, it makes things really iffy going forward and projecting what we can and can't do.

If one of Heyward or Justin would step up to the plate and sign an extension for slightly below market value, I believe the decesion would be much easier for the FO to decipher in which direction to take and fill the necessary gaps.

But the fact of the matter is, even if we tweak things and fill those needs in the interim, if we we're to lose both Justin and Jason to FA after the season the long term consequences could be devestating, even more so from the perspective that I'm sure the organization wants to make sure that we can a competitive team to put onto the field in 2017, which is not too far away, and even draft picks at that point in time would do no good.

From my perspective, if we aren't gonna be able to move most of BJ's contract (highly unlikely) and one Justin/Heyward don't get an extension done, it may just be easier to get MLB type talent that is ready or close to being ready and contribute in the near short term. Now not one of those players acquired may be of the caliber of either Heyward or Justin, but multiple pieces that are quality slightly above average players to fill multiple needs would be a direction to take, all the while taking the money saved and spending it in FA or acquiring talent shortly thereafter to fill needs may outyield the benefits of keeping those stars. And if that is the case we will still be able to build around some of the untouchables who should still be in their primes and quality players with the likes of Freeman, Simmons, Tehran, Wood, Kimbrel, etc and field a competitive team right about the same time that the new stadium opens.

 

[Tapate50]

A rebuild of this team is not a good idea. On Sept 1st we were 3 games back of the Giants and a half game ahead of the Pirates. This is a team that merely needs a tweak here or there to get over the top. 90 wins is all we need. Just get in and anything can happen!

Many different ways to skin a cat that work. Elite pitching can take a mediocre, but higher OBP a long way IMO.

I agree on one of Justin or Jason signing a extension would give the team a much needed narrowing of their future course of action.

 

[Enscheff]

Pretty hard to tweak when again almost 1/3, that's right 1/3 of our projected payroll budget will be tied up in dead weight in Uggla and BJ, and a complimentary player in CJ. It's not an easy fix, and then combine that with the pending FA of Justin Upton and Heyward on the horizon, it makes things really iffy going forward and projecting what we can and can't do.

This right here sums up the problems facing the Braves if they want to compete in 2015, and continue to compete heading into the new stadium in 2017.

If Hart knows (and I think he does) that there is no realistic way to extend either Justin or Heyward, then this team has exactly one more year in 2015 to win anything. The problem with trying to win anything in 2015 is that the $30M tied up in Uggla and BJ severely hamstring the club from making the needed additions to truly compete in 2015.

So the most likely scenario of "going for it" in 2015 with Justin and Heyward is the team doesn't have the resources to construct a good enough roster to win. Then after 2015 those two guys leave, and the team isn't good enough to compete in 2016 and beyond...and then the team sucks going into the new stadium.

This team can NOT suck going into the new stadium in 2017. Being good in 2017 trumps anything else because it will drive the growth of this franchise for the next 20+ years. Every move must be made with an eye on being a playoff team in 2017.

So the wise move might be to retrench in 2015 and come out ready to smash in 2016 and beyond. Unload Justin and Heyward for near MLB ready guys that can help win in 2016 and beyond. Being terrible in 2015 will net a protected top 10 pick so the team can sign a couple high quality FAs before the 2016 season without worrying about losing a draft pick. Peraza will be ready to contribute as well at that time.

A 1-2 year retrench is a lot different than a 5+ year rebuild like the Royals, Cubs and Astros are/have been doing.

 

[jcc03004]

If we rebuild aren't we looking at even less attendance? Will that affect the payroll going forward?