Angels close to acquiring Kyle Kubitza from Braves

Millwood1Hitter said:
You can only patch a crack for so long before it bursts and them the floodgates open and then you really got a problem.

That was the philosophy of Wren, yes we had a nice core but we were always patching areas of needs and in the long run it cost us. We weren't winning the WS in 2015 unless payroll went up exponentially. We could have patched with a few lower type players and made a run that would have resulted in a 1st round exit again, and then Heyward and Upton decide to leave for greener pastures and then BAM...the floodgate us open and there is no going back and it would set this organization back for 5-10 years to recover, and that's a disaster going into the new stadium.

This is why JS wanted Hart, to be at the forefront of making tough decesions to at least be able to handle the critics instead of throwing JC to the wolves. JC has a lot of clout though, and so far they have done a phenomenal job looking towards the future and rebuilding the entire organization from top to bottom so the pipeline is flowing and able to fill needs and retool year after year. That's why the run of division titles happened, we started with a good young core, added to that core and few big names at areas if need, and always had a viable replacement in the wings to fill an aging player or had the depth to acquire a need. That's the Braves Way, and that's what we're gonna get back to.

I'm kinda meh on the Upton deal as well, BUT if anything it adds depth to an organization in desperate need of it, and none of us know what Uptons value was on the market as a 1 year rental. I think Hart overplayed his hand somewhat, but it was only 2 years ago that we got Upton for relatively nothing but a really good versatile player, a dwindling pitching prospect, and a young and risky infielder. So while we were basking in the glory of raping the Dbacks for him, maybe his value amongst FOs just isn't as great as we think it is.
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Well said. The delusions of grandeur around these parts about (a) being able to compete in 2015 had we rolled the dice with Heyward/Upton, and (b) the returns should have been higher for 1 year rental players, has been out of control IMO. I get being critical of the returns because they are both good players but the free market dictates that value is only what another party is willing to pay. However, this notion that we were a legit WS team prior to the Heyward/Upton trades is laughable IMO.

JS/Hart/Cox/Coppy are doing an amazing job retooling the organization and I trust the current scouting staff to continually produce young players from the drafts and from the international market. The organization was at an all time low point for the last 20+ Years. Now that low point will be significantly shorter. Well done!
 
I also want to add that I was not in favor of a Justin extension unless it was well below market value or short in years. I just don't think a guy with his body type and skillset is going to necessarily age well. He like his brother did lived off potential and talent to get by at the MLB level, and once that talent goes, bat speed etc, they fall off a cliff. Justin might be one of the biggest hot and cold hitters I have ever witnessed, but when his bat speed goes a little those cold spells will be longer. Neither one I the Uptons have been able to take their game to the next level so far, and whose to say that's ever gonna happen? Scouts, and fans alike have been drooling over these guys for years and it hasn't necessarily materialized as far as production matching talent. They haven't taken that next step.

And while I think we can all agree that Kevin Towers is a complete moron, he wasn't necessarily out of line saying Upton wasn't a winning player. Yes when's he's hot he can carry a team, but I haven't seen anything that Upton does when he isn't hitting to help a team. A relative poor fielder, not a great base runner, and despite what numbers say with RISP, he didn't come up with the big hits when the club needed them the most. Don't get me wrong, Upton is immensely talented and gave good production, but I just don't see that player that can be an unstoppable force on a wining team. A nice complimentary piece, yes, a part of the core no. Where Towers was an idiot trying to think is replacing Uptons production with nothing but scrappy players like Cody Ross...lol...you need both to win.

One more thing on the Markakis signing. I think we all need to look at the big picture to understand our FO logic in this move, it's more than just numbers and he showered a willingness and a want to be here. Could we have gone a different route and get the same production, probably, but the dynamic that Markakis is production wise he fills a large area of need in the short term while providing the necessary leadership in the clubhouse to groom the youngsters for the future, which is sorely been lacking with losing guys like Wagner, Ross, Chipper, Hudson, and McCann recently. In the long term he should still be a viable option in some capacity in the field as a role player going into the last 2 years of the deal. This is not like the Uggla deal, or BJ deal, where Wren was banking on them to be a huge part of the core near the end of the deal, which obviously didn't work out even in the near term.
 
thethe said:
You? Do you know what was offered? \.
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To be fair neither do you.

It is normal to be underwhelmed for the return we got, especially when we dealt a guy who was one of the top power hitters in all of baseball and a home town kid who is just now hitting his prime.
 
thethe said:
Well said. The delusions of grandeur around these parts about (a) being able to compete in 2015 had we rolled the dice with Heyward/Upton, and (b) the returns should have been higher for 1 year rental players, has been out of control IMO. I get being critical of the returns because they are both good players but the free market dictates that value is only what another party is willing to pay. However, this notion that we were a legit WS team prior to the Heyward/Upton trades is laughable IMO.

JS/Hart/Cox/Coppy are doing an amazing job retooling the organization and I trust the current scouting staff to continually produce young players from the drafts and from the international market. The organization was at an all time low point for the last 20+ Years. Now that low point will be significantly shorter. Well done!
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How is it delusional? Assuming minor bounceback from CJ, sign some contingency player, we have solid team for 2015 offensively.

RF - Jason
LF - Justin
1B - Freddie
C - Gattis
3B - Johnson/Johnson
2B - TLS/Peraza
CF - Aoki/BJ
SS - SImmons

Bench
Johnson
BJ
Peraza
Bethancourt
Terds

3 platoons to address our weakest areas. Peraza (or Gosselin) handles lefties at 2B, CJ does at 3B and BJ in CF, against righties it's TLS at 2B, Kelly Johnson at 3B and Aoki in CF. Bench is strong, and we can add those 2 players for probably about 7M combined?

Rotation has some issues that's for sure. We could probably have signed 3 risk guys in Morrow, Floyd and Beachy. All are risky for various reasons, but all could be added for cheap. Minor, Wood and Julio is a strong top 3, if one of those 3 pans out or a combination of them pans out to one healthy and competent starter, we're fine there. If 2 of them pan out like say Harang did last year, we're golden.

Bullpen is strong, we've gutted our pen of several guys and it still looks good. Our strength in the pen would be the reason I'm not too concerned about the 4th and 5th rotation spots.

WE'd still be at risk cause if we have a major injury to a key player, we'd be in trouble. But very few teams have the ability to cover for a hurt major player. If we are struggling we still can unload Jason and Justin, maybe for a lower return, maybe for a higher return cause someone in the hunt lost a key outfielder, who knows, that's just speculation.

TO me that lineup and pen is enough to compete. Rotation has questions, but we've won with questionable rotations before.
 
No doubt that team can compete, but even you admitted a lot needs to go right and align perfectly. And in the end it most likely would end as it always has recently, early postseason exit.

And then what do you do after the year when Heyeard and Justin leave for the highest bidder? And still no viable options or depth in the minors to fill needs cheaply in the short term or to draw upon to find replacements?

That's asking for a disaster for 1 slight chance to maybe compete. Combine with the impending new stadium and the consequences could be devestating and push the organization back nearly a decade.
 
Millwood1Hitter said:
No doubt that team can compete, but even you admitted a lot needs to go right and align perfectly. And in the end it most likely would end as it always has recently, early postseason exit.

And then what do you do after the year when Heyeard and Justin leave for the highest bidder? And still no viable options or depth in the minors to fill needs cheaply in the short term or to draw upon to find replacements?

That's asking for a disaster for 1 slight chance to maybe compete. Combine with the impending new stadium and the consequences could be devestating and push the organization back nearly a decade.
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There's 2 options. 1. Compete now. 2. Hope guys you get back from trading 2 stars help you compete down the road.

Braves went with option 2 with the inexplicable waste of money on Markakis who'll be worth likely 20M over the life of that contract.
 
zitothebrave said:
There's 2 options. 1. Compete now. 2. Hope guys you get back from trading 2 stars help you compete down the road.

Braves went with option 2 with the inexplicable waste of money on Markakis who'll be worth likely 20M over the life of that contract.
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Both are gambles. I just find it funny that a year ago the mindset around here was that this was a young core that should compete for years. Now it's this team is broken and should of been rebuilt years ago. Nothing changed except a ****ty end to the season that soured some peoples opinions.
 
zitothebrave said:
There's 2 options. 1. Compete now. 2. Hope guys you get back from trading 2 stars help you compete down the road.

Braves went with option 2 with the inexplicable waste of money on Markakis who'll be worth likely 20M over the life of that contract.
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That's s George Steinbrenner outlook and plan, and rarely works, and we don't have the financial means to even make that a viable option. AND it wasn't until the Yankees used their minors to develop their core in the early and mid 90s, and then brought in complimentary pieces and some big names in areas of need, that they found success and built the dynasty. And it ironic, because once the Yankees went away from that mold and just used free agency and trades (Giambi, Sheffield, AROD,etc) and spent like a drunken sailor, they no longer were winning WS year after year.
 
thewupk said:
Both are gambles. I just find it funny that a year ago the mindset around here was that this was a young core that should compete for years. Now it's this team is broken and should of been rebuilt years ago. Nothing changed except a ****ty end to the season that soured some peoples opinions.
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Nah this team was too flawed. Anyone could see that and a bad year, or a bad month didn't change that outlook. Yes I was excited and loved the young core like many, but it just wasn't going to work. It would have if the previous GM wouldn't have tied up so much money in redundant deadweight pieces and having to patch year after year to dissolve those issues, but no financial flexibility made those issues even more exasperated.

Wren pigeonholed us into a situation that we just couldn't dig ourselves out of, thus we are where we are at.
 
thewupk said:
Both are gambles. I just find it funny that a year ago the mindset around here was that this was a young core that should compete for years. Now it's this team is broken and should of been rebuilt years ago. Nothing changed except a ****ty end to the season that soured some peoples opinions.
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Another year of a farm system failing to produce quality major league talent and the clear view that the depth in th elower minors was a disaster. Its not just what happens at hte major league level.
 
Zito, if your proposed SP staff can stay healthy and productive (big if), then I agree that this roster is a contender. Problem is, the payroll calculates out for me at more like $125m on the back of an envelope. Morrow and Floyd have a ton of $ in incentives that they'd hit if they play well and stay healthy. Also, I don't think we could get KJ and Aoki for $7m combined. $10m or $11m maybe.
 
zitothebrave said:
How is it delusional? Assuming minor bounceback from CJ, sign some contingency player, we have solid team for 2015 offensively.

RF - Jason
LF - Justin
1B - Freddie
C - Gattis
3B - Johnson/Johnson
2B - TLS/Peraza
CF - Aoki/BJ
SS - SImmons

Bench
Johnson
BJ
Peraza
Bethancourt
Terds

3 platoons to address our weakest areas. Peraza (or Gosselin) handles lefties at 2B, CJ does at 3B and BJ in CF, against righties it's TLS at 2B, Kelly Johnson at 3B and Aoki in CF. Bench is strong, and we can add those 2 players for probably about 7M combined?

Rotation has some issues that's for sure. We could probably have signed 3 risk guys in Morrow, Floyd and Beachy. All are risky for various reasons, but all could be added for cheap. Minor, Wood and Julio is a strong top 3, if one of those 3 pans out or a combination of them pans out to one healthy and competent starter, we're fine there. If 2 of them pan out like say Harang did last year, we're golden.

Bullpen is strong, we've gutted our pen of several guys and it still looks good. Our strength in the pen would be the reason I'm not too concerned about the 4th and 5th rotation spots.

WE'd still be at risk cause if we have a major injury to a key player, we'd be in trouble. But very few teams have the ability to cover for a hurt major player. If we are struggling we still can unload Jason and Justin, maybe for a lower return, maybe for a higher return cause someone in the hunt lost a key outfielder, who knows, that's just speculation.

TO me that lineup and pen is enough to compete. Rotation has questions, but we've won with questionable rotations before.
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Not bad but i fail to see how we could sign KJ, Aoki, Morrow and Floyd.

Even still, thats at best a 1st round exit team if they win the WC round then Heyward/Justin leave for nothing.

I dont like the JUp deal either but no one here knows what was offered for him.
 
Heyward said:
Not bad but i fail to see how we could sign KJ, Aoki, Morrow and Floyd.

Even still, thats at best a 1st round exit team if they win the WC round then Heyward/Justin leave for nothing.

I dont like the JUp deal either but no one here knows what was offered for him.
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Morrow signed for like 2M, Kelly Johnson just signed for 3M the year before, and had a down year so should be had for like 2M, Aoki should be had for pretty cheap based onnumber of suitors and previous salary, I figure like a 2/10 or something for him. Floyd would sign for basically what he did last year probably at a lower base.
 
dak said:
Floyd signed for $4m guaranteed with $6m in incentives.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/1...vin-floyd-one-year-deal?ex_cid=espnapi_public

Morrow signed for $2.5m guaranteed with $5m in incentives based on # of starts.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/1...-signs-san-diego-padres?ex_cid=espnapi_public

Aoki at AAV of $5m seems unrealistic to me.
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That's basically what I said. FLoyd was 5M base last year IIRC. If Morrow or Floyd is healthy they'll be worth is easily and when one isn't we have some cash saved.

Maybe I'm reading Aoki wrong, if I am then go with Colby Rasmus, have other options for a left handed bat.
 
Why anyone in our situation craves Colby Rasmus is beyond belief to me.

The guy is redundant in our case, he solves nothing. He's basically BJ with more power.

Again he'd be redundant, he's exactly like type of hitter we don't need. If the lineup was filled with a bunch of quality hitters and we were needing a platoon partner that hit for power or a 4th outfielder he would be a complimentary piece on a good team, but that is not the case. The guy solves nothing the way the roster was previously constructed.
 
I have our starting point roster at $98m with Heyward, Justin, Carp, etc.

I'll use your assumptions on KJ and Aoki, which I think are quite optimistic, and call that $7m to take us to $105m.

Add in Beachy at $2m, healthy Floyd at $10m, and healthy Morrow at $7.5m. That's $124.5m, and we're living on the absolute razor's edge with that pitching staff.

I think the personnel you propose are good fits and good values. Would probably want to add a $5m vet at SP to feel we could realistically get the WC. That would be a $130m club with a good rationale to go for it.
 
Millwood1Hitter said:
Why anyone in our situation craves Colby Rasmus is beyond belief to me.

The guy is redundant in our case, he solves nothing. He's basically BJ with more power.

Again he'd be redundant, he's exactly like type of hitter we don't need. If the lineup was filled with a bunch of quality hitters and we were needing a platoon partner that hit for power or a 4th outfielder he would be a complimentary piece on a good team, but that is not the case. The guy solves nothing the way the roster was previously constructed.
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Well in my go for it plan he would platoon with BJ, BJ faces lefties, Rasmus faces righties. Move them both to RF and have Jason play CF.

And if BJ was more like Rasmus, we'd be in the playoffs last year.
 
zitothebrave said:
Well in my go for it plan he would platoon with BJ, BJ faces lefties, Rasmus faces righties. Move them both to RF and have Jason play CF.

And if BJ was more like Rasmus, we'd be in the playoffs last year.
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Again that's fine, that's the role that Rasmus should be in (on a team with a balanced lineup filled with quality hitters) but again the way the lineup was constructed it exactly what we didn't need and it would be redundant to think it would change anything substantially going forward.
 
sturg33 said:
It doesn't matter what was offered. You don't trade a player for the "best offer." You trade him for his fair value. I don't think we got that. Not even close.
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Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you were a GM or executive charged with rebuilding a successful organization (particularly on a limited budget) and you hold out to get "fair value" in return for the players you're trading when you're under the gun (one season of control remaining with little to no hope of re-signing them) your tenure would turn out as successfully as Ron Paul's White House bids.
 
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