Another ace pitcher goes out

[Enscheff]

It's happening in every sport. Guys are getting bigger and stronger and faster, and they are getting hurt more and more. At least in baseball they only hurt their elbow...

 

[nsacpi]

I think the stathead movement has had an efffect. K's don't matter argument.

There is a curious asymmetry when it comes to how recent statistical innovations treat strikeouts.

For pitchers, a stat like FIP emphasizes and gives a lot of weight to strikeouts compared to traditional stats like ERA.

For hitters, a stat like wOBA treats a strikeout like any other out.

Think about that.

In the real baseball world, it is very likely that a strikeout hurts a team more than another kind of out. True you avoid double plays, but you also don't advance the runner and also give up the possibility that the fielder makes an error.

 

[NYCBrave]

I tend to side with the camp who say it has to do with too much of a workload when this pitchers are kids. But if you really think about it, there's too much at stake to not over extend as a youth. If you can last in the majors at a high level for 4/5 years, you're still set for life money wise.

 

[50PoundHead]

There is a curious asymmetry when it comes to how recent statistical innovations treat strikeouts.

For pitchers, a stat like FIP emphasizes and gives a lot of weight to strikeouts compared to traditional stats like ERA.

For hitters, a stat like wOBA treats a strikeout like any other out.

Think about that.

In the real baseball world, it is very likely that a strikeout hurts a team more than another kind of out. True you avoid double plays, but you also don't advance the runner and also give up the possibility that the fielder makes an error.

I've noticed that. and have always been baffled by the reasoning that supports the seeming contradiction.

I always go risk/reward on strikeouts. As far as I'm concerned, all of Justin Upton's outs could be strikeouts and it wouldn't matter that much because he walks a lot and can hit near .300 with a ton of power. Same went for Uggla when he was hitting HRs and walking. Trouble is, the Ks usually remain when the good stuff evaporates. But the whole thing also makes me wonder about guys like Mike Olt. Gus like Olt are hailed coming up through the minors, but walks seem to dwindle and Ks seem to increase as a player hits the bigs and you have to find the saddle point where you can accept the downside given the production levels.

I've always believed that it starts with contact. Ks can't be totally eliminated and I always thought guys like Francoeur actually hurt themselves by seemingly trying to avoid the K at all costs. Makes guys put balls in play weakly (and swinging at a lot of pitches out of the strike zone). So it's going to vary for every player, but the only things that can happen without contact are a walk or a strikeout.

 

[clvclv]

The American Sports Medicine Institute released a statement on this.

http://www.asmi.org/research.php?page=research§ion=TJpositionstatement

The problem is too much competitive pitching and too much pitching with fatigue. If a young pitcher has thrown 25+ pitches in an inning, he needs to be taken out of the game because a half inning is not enough time to fully recover from that.

Pitchers need to do more throwing on the side ON FLAT GROUND RATHER THAN FROM A MOUND and less full effort pitching.

There ya go.

Was really interesting to hear Jim Kaat talk about the fact that he threw EVERY DAY during his career, but that he NEVER threw off a mound between starts - those days were strictly devoted to mechanics, and he didn't need to be on the mound for that. Mentioned that he spent a lot of time taking infield with Ozzie Smith, and worked on his mechanics from the SS hole - that pretty much replaced the need for long toss.

 

[rico43]

Here's another note from MLBTR:

Nationals prospect Matt Purke will undergo Tommy John surgery tomorrow, reports Adam Kilgore of the Washington Post (via Twitter). The 23-year-old lefty has largely disappointed since the Nats gave him a $4.15MM bonus in 2011 to sign out of TCU. As Mark Zuckerman of CSNWashington.com notes on Twitter, Purke — who signed a big league deal — will be out of options by the time he recovers from the procedure.

 

[GovClintonTyree]

There ya go.

Was really interesting to hear Jim Kaat talk about the fact that he threw EVERY DAY during his career, but that he NEVER threw off a mound between starts - those days were strictly devoted to mechanics, and he didn't need to be on the mound for that. Mentioned that he spent a lot of time taking infield with Ozzie Smith, and worked on his mechanics from the SS hole - that pretty much replaced the need for long toss.

That WAS long toss.

 

[stpeteirish]

FWIW Marlins say Alvarez is OK, won't miss a start.

 

[thewupk]

There is a curious asymmetry when it comes to how recent statistical innovations treat strikeouts.

For pitchers, a stat like FIP emphasizes and gives a lot of weight to strikeouts compared to traditional stats like ERA.

For hitters, a stat like wOBA treats a strikeout like any other out.

Think about that.

In the real baseball world, it is very likely that a strikeout hurts a team more than another kind of out. True you avoid double plays, but you also don't advance the runner and also give up the possibility that the fielder makes an error.

Making contact just to avoid the strikeout often leads to weak contact which usually does not go for a hit. And errors aren't all that common despite what the Braves have shown recently. Making hard contact goes for hits at a much higher rate but yes that can come with the price of strikeouts. It's a balance though depending on the type of player. Strikeouts hurt all players but they hurt more players more. Chris Johnson is a good example of that. He doesn't have much power but he hits a lot of line drives. For him putting the ball in play more would likely lead to more hits. Simmons is an example in the opposite direction. He makes a lot of poor contact and rarely strikes out. Better contact from him with more strikeouts might make him a better hitter.