Harper has a lot of ground to make up for that to happen. Through age 23 Harper had 23 WAR. That's really good and a HOF trajectory. Trout was at 38.4 and that's GOAT level.
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Harper has a lot of ground to make up for that to happen. Through age 23 Harper had 23 WAR. That's really good and a HOF trajectory. Trout was at 38.4 and that's GOAT level.
Indeed. Steroid Bonds is the best hitter we've seen but sadly he's tainted. Still top 5 player ever without it imo.
From a straight WAR perspective its going to take a lot of time and may never happen. Trout just a better defender. I still believe that Harper can take his hitting to a whole other level than Trout is able to.
Well a straight WAR perspective is the best route if we are talking about best player. As far as hitting goes. Basically you are arguing that Harper gets to the Ruth, Williams, and steroids Bonds level offensively.
Right now Trout is 7th all-time in career WRC+ at 169. The 4 guys above him who are at his level are Gehrig, Hornsby, Bonds, and Mantle with only a 4 point gap between all of them. Then you get to Williams at 188 and Ruth at 197.
So while I guess it is within the realm of possibility that Harper turns into one of the top 4 hitters ever I just don't see it happening.
Many have expressed concerns regarding the accuracy of dWAR. That's why I prefer to just isolate hitting.
That's fine. But I would also direct you to career WAR leaderboards and tell me if you think they are off. They get it right imo. Also I think you overestimate Trout's defensive ability. He's an above average to average CF which is obviously good but it's not like he gets Heyward numbers out there.
From a pure hitting aspect Trout out paces Harper in career WAR 28.8 to 14. Include base running and it goes from 33.2 to 15. Trout is the GOAT. IMO we are watching the best player of all-time.
Thus far in their careers trout has the clear edge. Trout is an amazing player. I'm not trying to disparage him. It's about who I think has the most hitting talent.
That's fine. But again you are arguing that Harper joins the Ruth, Williams, and steroids Bonds hitting level. I don't think that's possible let alone likely.
sturg33
I
So he's literally been twice the offensive player as Harper... wow
Oh, I think that's absolutely possible. Certainly not likely in the sense that it's not likely for anyone to get there, but I'm not sure why you think it isn't possible. Anyone who has OPS'd at 1.100 as a 22-year-old can get there. All he would have to do is sustain the kind of year he had then. Again, very unlikely, but possible.
And this is assuming we're talking non-roids'ing Bonds. No one is ever getting there again. That was stupid.
He does basically have a full season worth of PA's on him because of time that Harper missed but yeah. Also half of that 14 hitting WAR came in 2015. Trout has been as consistent as you can get. To me that is the biggest thing.
GOAT in baseball is so tough. Bonds is it, but he's disqualified, IMO. Then Ruth is it, but it's tough to say that a guy who played in the 20's without anybody but white Americans is the GOAT. Then Ted Williams is it, especially when you consider that he lost 3 of what would have surely been his best years. But you also have Mays, who combined great (if not quite as great) offense with far better defense than anybody else in the discussion. Hank Aaron always gets overlooked to some degree in the discussion, and he's not the GOAT, but he at least deserves some notice for his longevity and sustained excellence.
And then you have all the pitchers.
It's hard for me to say that Trout looks like he will be the best ever. His instant jump to all-time great at age 20 was incredible, and his consistency has been remarkable. But will he have the peak that some others did? And how long will he sustain it? It's hard to say. But my ranking would probably go something like this:
1. Willie Mays
2. Ted Williams
3. Babe Ruth
4. Ty Cobb
5. Barry Bonds (without roids)
with Aaron, Gehrig, Hornsby, and Musial just missing.
If Trout continues this level through age 29-30 and then continues playing good baseball for another 5 years or so after that, he will begin to enter that top 5 territory.
And then you have all the pitchers.
It's hard for me to say that Trout looks like he will be the best ever. His instant jump to all-time great at age 20 was incredible, and his consistency has been remarkable. But will he have the peak that some others did? And how long will he sustain it? It's hard to say. But my ranking would probably go something like this:
1. Willie Mays
2. Ted Williams
3. Babe Ruth
4. Ty Cobb
5. Barry Bonds (without roids)
with Aaron, Gehrig, Hornsby, and Musial just missing.
If Trout continues this level through age 29-30 and then continues playing good baseball for another 5 years or so after that, he will begin to enter that top 5 territory.
I mean if you want to say it's possible then sure. Maybe like a 1% chance it happens. Harpers 2015 was an all-time great season. Only 3 timesin the history of baseball as a hitter age 22 or younger put up an 1100+ OPS and only twice since 1900. The other guy was someone named Ted Williams. But considering in the grand history of the game there have been only 2 hitters to sustain that type of offensive ability for an entire career I am going to go out on a limb and say Harper won't be the 3rd.
For position players I would agree with the names but not the order. But that doesn't really matter. And you are right that GOAT is tough. We've had 2 somewhat recent examples of hitters beasting once they get to the majors but only to falter (from previous levels) once they get to their 30's in Thomas and Pujols. Through age 29 Thomas has the 5th best WRC+ and Pujols the 9th. So yeah it's hard to maintain that level for a whole career.
Will Trout be that guy? Hard to say. What gives me hope for Trout is that he is more Mays like than Pujols or Thomas. Trout is an amazingly good baserunner and can hold his own defensively at an up the middle position. It's a skills combination that rarely happens.
bravesfanforlife88
Well-known member
Never wish injury on someone but looks like Adam Eaton may have broken his ankle... looks like he rolled it going through first base trying to beat out a hit. Had to be carried off the field by the trainers
bravesfanMatt
Steve Harvey'd
That sucks
For gilesfan
NYCBrave
Well-known member
Wondering if the NL is more wide open than it's been in previous years. I know it's still very early, but the traditional playoff teams like the Dodgers, Cardinals, Mets, Giants, etc haven't really looked all that great. Might be shaping up to be the type of year you have a better chance of sneaking into a wild card spot and then anything can happen.
Dont rule out the Fighting Kemps yet. The Protectors.