BA top 10 Braves prospects

mqt said:
If a young player only has one year in which he’s displayed power, I can’t think of a better scenario than it being his most recent season.
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Yeah...anybody who hasn't seen Pache and uses one year of power to describe him is missing the point. Cooper even said that he believes in Pache and his athleticism. His development had not been as pronounced as Waters to this point only in the sense that Pache has to continue to develop his swing to accommodate driving the ball.

It's not bad to have a taste for one or the other but to say it's "obvious" that Waters over Pache is misguided at best.
 
Deester11 said:
Yeah...anybody who hasn't seen Pache and uses one year of power to describe him is missing the point. Cooper even said that he believes in Pache and his athleticism. His development had not been as pronounced as Waters to this point only in the sense that Pache has to continue to develop his swing to accommodate driving the ball.

It's not bad to have a taste for one or the other but to say it's "obvious" that Waters over Pache is misguided at best.
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Cooper says he thinks that you could plug him in the field right now and he'd be a plus defender wherever you put him. But he definitely doubts that Pache will ever consistently flash any power.
 
Southcack77 said:
Cooper says he thinks that you could plug him in the field right now and he'd be a plus defender wherever you put him. But he definitely doubts that Pache will ever consistently flash any power.
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Everyone has an opinion. I believe if he comes close to 15 HR'S a year, he's our answer in CF for a long time. I'm a Waters fan but I've seen enough of both to believe in Pache. Could be 1A and 1B but that's ok.
 
Deester11 said:
Everyone has an opinion. I believe if he comes close to 15 HR'S a year, he's our answer in CF for a long time. I'm a Waters fan but I've seen enough of both to believe in Pache. Could be 1A and 1B but that's ok.
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I know my post may have suggested otherwise, but I was pointing to Cooper's rationale rather than my own. He sees Waters as someone who will give you above average defense everywhere and is much more likely to hit. I think that is kind of an obvious take in valuing the two guys in a vaccuum.

I'm not especially high on Waters myself probably just because I heard some random muttering that he's not the easiest guy to get along with or coach.

I will say, that I also do not particularly believe that Pache will ever hit a whole lot.

I don't see either as untouchable.
 
Southcack77 said:
I know my post may have suggested otherwise, but I was pointing to Cooper's rationale rather than my own. He sees Waters as someone who will give you above average defense everywhere and is much more likely to hit. I think that is kind of an obvious take in valuing the two guys in a vaccuum.

I'm not especially high on Waters myself probably just because I heard some random muttering that he's not the easiest guy to get along with or coach.

I will say, that I also do not particularly believe that Pache will ever hit a whole lot.

I don't see either as untouchable.
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Most have noted Pache putting on "good weight" ... I'd imagine its just a tad early to write it off completely. Another year in a pro training facility could do the kid wonders.
 
pache still has a loooooong way to go with the bat. i'd say it's very likely always going to be below average. the question is how far below average. if it's an 85-90 wRC+ bat he's a very valuable player.
 
Super said:
pache still has a loooooong way to go with the bat. i'd say it's very likely always going to be below average. the question is how far below average. if it's an 85-90 wRC+ bat he's a very valuable player.
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That's just the point. The guy was heralded as an international signing but was thought to be less than Derian Cruz initially. I saw them both in rookie ball and Pache wasn't even a 60 scale runner or defender. Yet, he was the easiest one to root for because he soaked up instruction and it showed on those back fields.

Fast forward a little and he's more than improved with the bat. He slapped everything he saw until Rome where instead of slapping, he was hitting more gap base hits then before albeit with no HR'S. He is definitely tools over productivity right now, but at 19 at low-A, he wasn't over matched IMHO. I don't know who else here goes to as many Rome games as I do but I couldn't stop watching him even at the plate (in the field...stop what you're doing - it's fun)!

Now there are legitimate concerns on where his bat ends up. I'm not a scout but I love my own eyes with corrective lenses enough to observe what I have seen. I think he's raw and has improved each year. I do think he would have been better served going a level at a time but the Braves are doing what they think is best. There is a reason he was ranked highly in the AFL as well. He's good.

I like Waters power potential more and he's good in his own right in the field. I saw an athlete who glided in the field and I saw the good in his bat more than I saw the ugly. His ugly...was ugly..lol. But...when Drew squares up a ball, it sounds like the Nike swoosh (However that may sound).

All this to say....I like them both to be major leaguers. I am a Pache fan. I wish I knew if they would be great, just good, or they had pictures of the manager's mistress in order to stay on the team.
 
Pache in his age 19 season just put up an OPS of .742 in high A.

Waters in his age 19 season just put up an OPS of .863 in low A and in a smaller sample .680 in high A.

They are the same age, but Pache has been a pro longer. Adjusted for level, they hit about the same last season. Pache without any doubt has the superior glove.

I think Pache is our most underrated prospect in terms of where BA listed him. I would have him in our top 5, maybe top 3.

Something like this:

1. Soroka
2. Pache
3. Gohara
4. Anderson
5. Riley

That would be my top 5. Soroka, Pache and Gohara imo have the highest ceilings of our prospects. They are the ones I would be most reluctant to trade, especially given that the Soroka and Gohara have suffered a dip in value from which I expect them to bounce back.
 
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nsacpi said:
Pache in his age 19 season just put up an OPS of .742 in high A.

Waters in his age 19 season just put up an OPS of .863 in low A and in a smaller sample .680 in high A.

They are the same age, but Pache has been a pro longer. Adjusted for level, they hit about the same last season. Pache without any doubt has the superior glove.

I think Pache is our most underrated prospect in terms of where BA listed him. I would have him in our top 5.
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I think that's my point nsacpi...I get the questions about the bat but I have more faith in it than most. I've nailed most of the prospects good or bad...so I guess we will see. I did miss on Alejandro Machado though...lol
 
Deester11 said:
I think that's my point nsacpi...I get the questions about the bat but I have more faith in it than most. I've nailed most of the prospects good or bad...so I guess we will see. I did miss on Alejandro Machado though...lol
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You definitely have a great eye for prospects. Your reports are one of the best things around here.
 
nsacpi said:
You definitely have a great eye for prospects. Your reports are one of the best things around here.
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Thanks nsacpi...I try to be objective and when it's time to be critical I call it out. I love going to see the kids because scouts can develop bias's too. I know I have. I can say this is a perfect time to do trades. The lower levels aren't as crappy as some would think...not great but a few gems possibly. Thanks for the compliment.
 
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I think the biggest thing with Pache is: Just how good is his defense really? Is it Mike Trout level defense (Really good, but not top 3 defensive CF in the league) or is it 2015 Kevin Kiermaier good or Byron Buxton good?

If the hype surrounding his defense is justified, then he will still be a supremely valuable even if his bat is slightly below average. Kevin Kiermaier put up a ~5 WAR season in 2015 while having a 97 wRC+ and a 99 OPS+. I've only seen Pache two or three times in Pearl, but from what I saw he was the best defensive CF I've ever seen in the minor leagues. Whether he maintains that electric ability as his body continues to grow is another question, but right now Pache is my top position prospect in our system by a long shot. He might be my top prospect overall, but I think I still have to give that to Soroka.

1. Soroka
2. Pache
3. Touki
4. Anderson
5. Wright
6. Riley
7. Waters
8. Fried
9. Wilson
10. Contreras

Maybe once I see Waters play I'll change my mind on him, but right now he seems like a solid, young, back end of the top 100 guy with upside. Similarly to how I see Contreras.
 
BeanieAntics said:
I think the biggest thing with Pache is: Just how good is his defense really? Is it Mike Trout level defense (Really good, but not top 3 defensive CF in the league) or is it 2015 Kevin Kiermaier good or Byron Buxton good?

If the hype surrounding his defense is justified, then he will still be a supremely valuable even if his bat is slightly below average. Kevin Kiermaier put up a ~5 WAR season in 2015 while having a 97 wRC+ and a 99 OPS+. I've only seen Pache two or three times in Pearl, but from what I saw he was the best defensive CF I've ever seen in the minor leagues. Whether he maintains that electric ability as his body continues to grow is another question, but right now Pache is my top position prospect in our system by a long shot. He might be my top prospect overall, but I think I still have to give that to Soroka.

1. Soroka
2. Pache
3. Touki
4. Anderson
5. Wright
6. Riley
7. Waters
8. Fried
9. Wilson
10. Contreras

Maybe once I see Waters play I'll change my mind on him, but right now he seems like a solid, young, back end of the top 100 guy with upside. Similarly to how I see Contreras.
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It's a prejudice I should probably overcome, but I just can't take defensive WAR at face value. It feels off kilter.

Kiermaier just doesn't feel like a 5 win player.
 
Southcack77 said:
It's a prejudice I should probably overcome, but I just can't take defensive WAR at face value. It feels off kilter.

Kiermaier just doesn't feel like a 5 win player.
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You'll get there. Just taking a quick look at the Braves win/loss improvement from 17 to 18 and comparing it with their improvements in offense and pitching still leaves a gap of roughly 6 wins that's mostly covered up by the improved defense.

It's not as precise as offensive WAR right now but it' still really good and pretty historically accurate too.
 
Southcack77 said:
It's a prejudice I should probably overcome, but I just can't take defensive WAR at face value. It feels off kilter.

Kiermaier just doesn't feel like a 5 win player.
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I feel like in the aggregate it came be useful but I can't get over the feeling that it's way out of line for some individual players.
 
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