Braves donate Justin Upton to Padres for prospects

bravesnumberone said:
I'm picturing the board exploding when we trade Minor for Cespedes.
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I would explode. We should not trade for anyone on a one year deal. If we did that I would assume we plan on flipping him at the deadline.

If you are going for a WS contender in 2017 as they say, Cespedes makes no sense. It would have to be something where he signs an extension as part of it (which will never happen).
 
zitothebrave said:
PRetty much every pitcher in baseball has TJ written all over them. THe re-emphasis of velocity has led to a lot of guys with more violent mechanics. In Walkers case it's the slow slow fast thing he does. There's no reason to stop mid-mechanics if you're doing it right.

WQhen you watch, Ryan, Seaver, Maddux, etc. They never stop their windup. It wastes massive amounts of power. My concern over walker isn't that he's a TJ case, my concern is he may be a Tommy Hanson case. That being said, we won't know until it happens. Until they he's an impressive young talent.
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I don't have a problem with slow slow fast. Pitchers have been doing that since the dead ball era.

The issue I have with Walker is his follow through. It's the same Matt Harvey effect. The "whiplash" effect from after he releases. Instead of following through across his body and around, he whips his arm back to the right side almost immediately. When you use all the kinetic chain to go left, and a split second later you use the same force to bring it back right, you aren't letting the remaining momentum die out with your body weight, you're doing a complete 180 and wasting that momentum on an unnecessary movement just like Matt Harvey did. This will destroy the ligaments because it treats them like asking a small rubber band to support Aaron Harang's centripetal force.

When you watch Pedro, who had awesome mechanics considering his frame and height, when his arm tries to do the whip back effect, he keeps his side turned to first base so the arm doesn't move, the rest of his body adjusts to it's momentum.


Same thing with the Big Unit.


Pedro and Randy had violent deliveries, but they used their entire body to the maximum kinetic chain potential. Why Pedro's shoulder broke down later, and Randy's knees gave out. Too much torque but it helped them dominate for over a decade.
 
Hawk said:
There's not really anything remotely 'clear' about that, though.

It curiously undervalues the draft picks we would have received, and discounts the fact that the Braves would have been flush with cash in 2016/2017 (dropping the commitments due to Justin/BJ/Jason/Uggla combined with a sizable increase in payroll headed into the new ballpark) for snagging some prime free agents.

I don't disapprove of the plan to trade Heyward/J. Upton, although I think it's been poorly executed so far. But it was really quite far from the only solution.
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Really? What would the solution have been after they walked away to play in NY, LA, or Chi? Draft players with the 35th and 36th picks in the draft that would have a ~25% chance of helping by 2020? Use that money to sign a FA that was probably as mediocre as Markakis? Do we not realize all these currently young and cheap pitchers are going to be much more expensive by then, and also sucking up some of that freed money?

It is baffling to me how folks that seem to possess at least average intelligence and baseball savvy can say things like "We have $30M coming off the books, so we can spend $30M on FAs!", as if the majority of the current roster won't already be accounting for that through built in raises or arbitration awards. Do we not understand that young cost controlled players in the minor leagues are required to replace departing expensive players in order for mid-market teams to be competitive?

The fact of the matter is the Braves system was barren. It was barren to the point of being one of the worst 5 farm systems in the game. It was so bad that 1 year of Heyward and 2 years of a set up man were able to bring back a mid rotation starter with TOR potential and 4 years of control AND a pitching prospect that is probably now the best prospect in the entire system. That's how bad the minor league system is. Outside of Peraza and maybe Sims, no help is coming. None.

Heyward was used to help address that, and JUp/Gattis will be used to do the same. I just hope they focus on position players as the return.

Right now the Braves can afford 1 $20M+ player, and that player is the consistent middle of the order bat in Freeman. Hart has already said what we all know: the BJ and Uggla contracts are handcuffing the team. They can't afford to pay Heyward or JUp $20M+, so they converted them to controllable assets.

In a few years the team will probably be in position to add a $25M star, so let's hope it isn't another BJ. The Braves are about due for a big FA signing to actually work out for once.
 
mcollier said:
I don't want Cespedes, but I don't mind trading Minor in the right deal. Maybe we could pry Mookie Betts away from the BoSawx?
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I'd love to get Mookie Betts or Arismendy Alcantara. Someone who can play 2B immediately and move to CF when Peraza is ready and form that 1-2 punch atop the order.
 
Enscheff said:
Really? What would the solution have been after they walked away to play in NY, LA, or Chi? Draft players with the 35th and 36th picks in the draft that would have a ~25% chance of helping by 2020? Use that money to sign a FA that was probably as mediocre as Markakis? Do we not realize all these currently young and cheap pitchers are going to be much more expensive by then, and also sucking up some of that freed money?

It is baffling to me how folks that seem to possess at least average intelligence and baseball savvy can say things like "We have $30M coming off the books, so we can spend $30M on FAs!", as if the majority of the current roster won't already be accounting for that through built in raises or arbitration awards. Do we not understand that young cost controlled players in the minor leagues are required to replace departing expensive players in order for mid-market teams to be competitive?

The fact of the matter is the Braves system was barren. It was barren to the point of being one of the worst 5 farm systems in the game. It was so bad that 1 year of Heyward and 2 years of a set up man were able to bring back a mid rotation starter with TOR potential and 4 years of control AND a pitching prospect that is probably now the best prospect in the entire system. That's how bad the minor league system is. Outside of Peraza and maybe Sims, no help is coming. None.

Heyward was used to help address that, and JUp/Gattis will be used to do the same. I just hope they focus on position players as the return.

Right now the Braves can afford 1 $20M+ player, and that player is the consistent middle of the order bat in Freeman. Hart has already said what we all know: the BJ and Uggla contracts are handcuffing the team. They can't afford to pay Heyward or JUp $20M+, so they converted them to controllable assets.

In a few years the team will probably be in position to add a $25M star, so let's hope it isn't another BJ. The Braves are about due for a big FA signing to actually work out for once.
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Bravo!

/endthread
 
Enscheff said:
Really? What would the solution have been after they walked away to play in NY, LA, or Chi? Draft players with the 35th and 36th picks in the draft that would have a ~25% chance of helping by 2020? Use that money to sign a FA that was probably as mediocre as Markakis? Do we not realize all these currently young and cheap pitchers are going to be much more expensive by then, and also sucking up some of that freed money?

It is baffling to me how folks that seem to possess at least average intelligence and baseball savvy can say things like "We have $30M coming off the books, so we can spend $30M on FAs!", as if the majority of the current roster won't already be accounting for that through built in raises or arbitration awards. Do we not understand that young cost controlled players in the minor leagues are required to replace departing expensive players in order for mid-market teams to be competitive?

The fact of the matter is the Braves system was barren. It was barren to the point of being one of the worst 5 farm systems in the game. It was so bad that 1 year of Heyward and 2 years of a set up man were able to bring back a mid rotation starter with TOR potential and 4 years of control AND a pitching prospect that is probably now the best prospect in the entire system. That's how bad the minor league system is. Outside of Peraza and maybe Sims, no help is coming. None.

Heyward was used to help address that, and JUp/Gattis will be used to do the same. I just hope they focus on position players as the return.

Right now the Braves can afford 1 $20M+ player, and that player is the consistent middle of the order bat in Freeman. Hart has already said what we all know: the BJ and Uggla contracts are handcuffing the team. They can't afford to pay Heyward or JUp $20M+, so they converted them to controllable assets.

In a few years the team will probably be in position to add a $25M star, so let's hope it isn't another BJ. The Braves are about due for a big FA signing to actually work out for once.
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I have to stop for a moment and chuckle at the absurdist notion that the entire future of the organization hung in the balance over whether or not the Braves retained Justin Upton and Jason Heyward in 2015. That somehow the farm system would've continued to languish in obscurity without acquiring Tyrell Jenkins (and whomever the Braves eventually get for J. Upton and/or Gattis), that yet to be selected draft picks would've surely amounted to squat, that any subsequent additions to the team would've been mediocre. You have a tendency to operate in (negative) ultimates with a truly unique future-revisionist perspective.

Anyways, the team would have considerably more than '$30MM' coming off of the books by 2016/2017. We're talking about anywhere from $50-$75MM, with little consideration given to forthcoming bumps in payroll. That's pretty significant. I'll give you $15MM for the 'built in raises' and 'arbitration awards' that you are, for some odd reason, treating as enormous expenditures -- and that's probably more than generous.

That's enough to acquire a few key components and contend in 2017. Not 2027.

And that's not making any mention of any of the other facets of the team which will most likely improve given the recent changes at the top, such as the scouting department, player development, etc.

This is rebuilding 101.
 
I have been working on a special project and have not been catching up as well as I should.

Any reaction to the Mariners trading Saunders to the Blue Jays for J.A. Happ and how it might impact this has on Braves-Ms talk?
 
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