Braves fire Seitzer and assistant hitting coach. Also Fasano.

[cajunrevenge]

Perhaps some of the success from last year went to their heads. I dont blame Seitzer but I am fine with him being fired. We need someone new because clearly they didnt respect Seitzer. It happens. Now I just wish they would fire Snitker. I know the players like him but thats the point. At the end of the day these players are mostly rich as **** living great lives. Its hard to motivate players like that. Thats why young teams with players playing for that big payday in a couple years always seem to outperform. They just want it more. If they like the manager thats really the only leverage we have on the players.

 

[Enscheff]

The optimal offensive approach is to put your A swing on pitches in the middle of the zone, and don’t swing at pitches not in the middle of the zone. Swinging just to make contact for the sake of making contact isn’t effective…this isn’t the 80s on artificial turf against guy throwing 87 mph.

The problem arises when guys can’t make contact with their A swing, and start swinging at pitches outside the zone they couldn’t do damage in even if they did hit the ball. That’s what people are actually seeing when they say things like “doesn’t even put together quality PAs”.

Helping guys make contact with their A swing, and refining their approach pitch location is exactly what I would expect a hitting coach to do.

 

[50PoundHead]

There was an interesting interview with former Braves' and now Yankees' minor league IF Caleb Durbin during last year's Arizona Fall League. His statistics in his one-plus season in the FCL, Augusta, and Rome were pretty anemic. The Braves traded him to the Yankees along with Indigo Diaz for Lucas Luetge. Durbin was tearing up the AFL and during the interview, he was asked how his hitting turnaround started. He didn't throw the Braves' hitting instrution under the bus or elaborate what they taught, but he did compliment the Yankees' instructors with teaching him how to swing hard in the zone.

Durbin as done well and even with the change in approach his walk-rate is > 10% and his K-rate is slightly below 10%. I don't know if this makes Durbin a prospect or not, but I did find it interesting that his stats have just gotten so much better with the Yankees' A, AA, and AAA teams. Part of that may be just him becoming more acclimated with the pro game, but I have to believe instruction has something to do with it.

When I look at the astronomical K-rates of a lot of the "highly regarded when signed" guys (especially the international signings), I don't know if that can be laid at the feet of the scouting staff or the instructional staff. I'm not calling Seitzer a scapegoat, but with his exit maybe it's time they look at hitting instruction bottom-to-top. Seitzer can only do so much with guys who may have been ill-taught during their minor league careers.

 

[50PoundHead]

There was an interesting interview with former Braves' and now Yankees' minor league IF Caleb Durbin during last year's Arizona Fall League. His statistics in his one-plus season in the FCL, Augusta, and Rome were pretty anemic. The Braves traded him to the Yankees along with Indigo Diaz for Lucas Luetge. Durbin was tearing up the AFL and during the interview, he was asked how his hitting turnaround started. He didn't throw the Braves' hitting instrution under the bus or elaborate what they taught, but he did compliment the Yankees' instructors with teaching him how to swing hard in the zone.

Durbin as done well and even with the change in approach his walk-rate is > 10% and his K-rate is slightly below 10%. I don't know if this makes Durbin a prospect or not, but I did find it interesting that his stats have just gotten so much better with the Yankees' A, AA, and AAA teams. Part of that may be just him becoming more acclimated with the pro game, but I have to believe instruction has something to do with it.

When I look at the astronomical K-rates of a lot of the "highly regarded when signed" guys (especially the international signings), I don't know if that can be laid at the feet of the scouting staff or the instructional staff. I'm not calling Seitzer a scapegoat, but with his exit maybe it's time they look at hitting instruction bottom-to-top. Seitzer could only do so much with guys who may have been ill-taught during their minor league careers.

 

[Strike3urout]

Arcia has played almost 1000 games, before coming to Atlanta he had a career 72 OPS+ He had a 73 OPS+ last year, to paraphrase, Dennis Green "HE IS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS"

2023 was an anomoly. Not what you expect.

Yeah, citing Arcia as an example of Seitzer’s failure isn’t the argument you think it is.

Fine. Then strike Arcia off the list. That does not change my argument one bit. Almost every hitter had a disappointing season, and no one surprised to the upside. Even Ozuna ended up with comparable numbers to 2023, albeit slightly improved.

 

[cajunrevenge]

There was an interesting interview with former Braves' and now Yankees' minor league IF Caleb Durbin during last year's Arizona Fall League. His statistics in his one-plus season in the FCL, Augusta, and Rome were pretty anemic. The Braves traded him to the Yankees along with Indigo Diaz for Lucas Luetge. Durbin was tearing up the AFL and during the interview, he was asked how his hitting turnaround started. He didn't throw the Braves' hitting instrution under the bus or elaborate what they taught, but he did compliment the Yankees' instructors with teaching him how to swing hard in the zone.

Durbin as done well and even with the change in approach his walk-rate is > 10% and his K-rate is slightly below 10%. I don't know if this makes Durbin a prospect or not, but I did find it interesting that his stats have just gotten so much better with the Yankees' A, AA, and AAA teams. Part of that may be just him becoming more acclimated with the pro game, but I have to believe instruction has something to do with it.

When I look at the astronomical K-rates of a lot of the "highly regarded when signed" guys (especially the international signings), I don't know if that can be laid at the feet of the scouting staff or the instructional staff. I'm not calling Seitzer a scapegoat, but with his exit maybe it's time they look at hitting instruction bottom-to-top. Seitzer could only do so much with guys who may have been ill-taught during their minor league careers.

Thats honestly the most basic thing. I guarantee you our hitting coaches are teaching that. It doesnt mean they should ONLY swing on pitches down the middle. In the low minors its probably less of a thing simply because the pitchers are so wild.

 

[Enscheff]

I’m not so sure about that. Riley had massive approach issues that seemed to only be worked out with Chipper. Harris and Albies still have massive approach issues. Even Acuna, the most talented offensive player this org has seen since Aaron doesn’t walk as much as someone with his skill set should.

In fact, I can’t name a hitter the Braves have produced since Freeman/Heyward with a plus approach at the plate. Is that coincidence?

 

[CyYoung31]

Are we seriously at the point of saying that Acuña doesn’t have a plus approach at the plate? What are we doing here?

 

[Carp]

I’m not so sure about that. Riley had massive approach issues that seemed to only be worked out with Chipper. Harris and Albies still have massive approach issues. Even Acuna, the most talented offensive player this org has seen since Aaron doesn’t walk as much as someone with his skill set should.

In fact, I can’t name a hitter the Braves have produced since Freeman/Heyward with a plus approach at the plate. Is that coincidence?

Are we really complaining about Acuna's approach? It's a little early in the off-season for that isn't it? Acuna is walking at nearly the same pace Chipper did through his age 26 season, and Chipper was a lifetime .400 OBP hitter.

Contreras also walked 10% of the time when he came up. That's pretty damn good.

But a common theme among most of the hitters we have developed in the last 10 years is that they came up when they were 21 or earlier. How many 20 year olds are coming up with "plus" approaches at the plate? Juan Soto's of the world are pretty rare.

 

[cajunrevenge]

I’m not so sure about that. Riley had massive approach issues that seemed to only be worked out with Chipper. Harris and Albies still have massive approach issues. Even Acuna, the most talented offensive player this org has seen since Aaron doesn’t walk as much as someone with his skill set should.

In fact, I can’t name a hitter the Braves have produced since Freeman/Heyward with a plus approach at the plate. Is that coincidence?

Thats because its not easy. They can coach it till they are blue in the face but its on the players to execute it. Saying we should teach players to put their A swing on pitches in the middle of the zone is like saying we should teach pitchers to throw strikes with their fastball. Part of the problem is players dont like to change what is working. So whats working for a prospect in the minors they may not be willing to change until they face failure at a higher level. Different things are going to work for different players. It would be nice if all our players had great approaches but for some if we kill their aggressiveness we arent doing them any favors.

 

[50PoundHead]

Are we really complaining about Acuna's approach? It's a little early in the off-season for that isn't it? Acuna is walking at nearly the same pace Chipper did through his age 26 season, and Chipper was a lifetime .400 OBP hitter.

Contreras also walked 10% of the time when he came up. That's pretty damn good.

But a common theme among most of the hitters we have developed in the last 10 years is that they came up when they were 21 or earlier. How many 20 year olds are coming up with "plus" approaches at the plate? Juan Soto's of the world are pretty rare.

Don't disagree, but Albies' and Harris' BB-rates were lousy in the minor leagues (Swanson's not much better). I think it's a combination of things, but they have been forced over the last decade to rush guys for a variety of reasons (totally stupid in the Coppolella era when they weren't contending. Anthopoulos gets a bit of a pass because they were) and the minor league hitting instruction hasn't been that good. Baseball is a really hard game and it is really difficult to learn things at the major league level.

As I have said several times over the past couple of seasons, a lot of the top-tier international signings and some of the higher draft picks are striking out at a rate that begs the question "What are they being taught?"

 

[Southcack77]

Thats because its not easy. They can coach it till they are blue in the face but its on the players to execute it. Saying we should teach players to put their A swing on pitches in the middle of the zone is like saying we should teach pitchers to throw strikes with their fastball. Part of the problem is players dont like to change what is working. So whats working for a prospect in the minors they may not be willing to change until they face failure at a higher level. Different things are going to work for different players. It would be nice if all our players had great approaches but for some if we kill their aggressiveness we arent doing them any favors.

I'm not sure "swing hard at pitches in the zone" is a secret sauce that the Braves coaches haven't figured out.

Most of the Braves home developed players have exceeded their prospect evaluations and what more realistic minded posters projected for them.

When you draft for pitching as heavily as Atlanta does it's hard to hit on late round selections.

Hopefully their international pool starts filling in some of that as they get a little older. But they clearly lost years there. .

 

[Carp]

Don't disagree, but Albies' and Harris' BB-rates were lousy in the minor leagues (Swanson's not much better). I think it's a combination of things, but they have been forced over the last decade to rush guys for a variety of reasons (totally stupid in the Coppolella era when they weren't contending. Anthopoulos gets a bit of a pass because they were) and the minor league hitting instruction hasn't been that good. Baseball is a really hard game and it is really difficult to learn things at the major league level.

As I have said several times over the past couple of seasons, a lot of the top-tier international signings and some of the higher draft picks are striking out at a rate that begs the question "What are they being taught?"

That's mostly the point I am making. Harris and Albies were beginning their 3rd year in the majors when most prospects were going through AAA. So the learning curve isn't quite the same.

It's hard to read much into the lower level guys. We have only recently been able to really get involved in the international market again. And we aren't investing high draft picks into hitting, so the hitters we do draft are likely to be a good bit riskier in the first place.

 

[cajunrevenge]

Albies and Harris could have spent 10 years at AAA it wouldnt make them draw walks more. If teaching hitters to have good approaches was easy every team would be filled with players with good approaches. And they arent. Most players with those good approaches also dont hit for much power. If we want to be one of those teams we need to get rid if our power hitters and that just creates a whole new problem.

 

[Strike3urout]

Albies and Harris could have spent 10 years at AAA it wouldnt make them draw walks more. If teaching hitters to have good approaches was easy every team would be filled with players with good approaches. And they arent. Most players with those good approaches also dont hit for much power. If we want to be one of those teams we need to get rid if our power hitters and that just creates a whole new problem.

Are you saying that power hitters generally don't have a good hitting approach? That's certainly a unique take, because those hitters in particular need to be selective, as there's only a limited number of pitches they can hit with authority. Someone may be able to punch a low-and-away pitch through the infield hole, but they're generally not going to hit it out of the park.

I'm sure the Braves - like every other organization - wants their hitters to look for hittable pitches and put their best swings on them. No one is teaching how to handle sliders in the dirt. The big question is: HOW are they teaching it? It's not enough to say it. You have to employ specific methods by which a hitter can learn to differentiate between good and bad pitches fast enough so they can decide whether to swing in time. I don't feel like the Braves are on top of the game in this regard, both at the major league level and the minors. I feel that organizations like the Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox are better in this regard, and you can tell that their hitters tend to have a more polished approach.

 

[cajunrevenge]

It depends what you consider a good approach. People like to **** on players with little to no understand of what was going through the players head. A power hitter is going to look bad a lot of the time. First pitch outs. Lots of strike outs. Etc.

With the example of low and away sliders theres physical limitations on players ability to recognize pitches. If there was any guaranteed way to teach a player not to swing at low and away sliders the Braves would have had 10 of them in constant orbit around Andruw Jones. I take less issue with questioning how they teach it rather than people thinking they dont teach it. Theres lots of players who will never get it no matter what and forcing it on them too hard ruins what made them special in the first place. Like Francoeur, he couldnt ever draw a lot of walks because it would require losing his aggressiveness which is also why he hit for power. He could hit .100 and draw a lot of walks or he could hit .250, draw few walks, and hit for power. Andruw Jones said he could hit .300 but he would only hit 20 homers a year. Personally I would have taken that but he could lay off that outside slider but he would have lost a lot of his power because he has to cheat on the pitches to hit them.

I disagree about the Dodgers,Astros, and Red Sox. I think the difference is in their selection of prospects not in their teaching.

 

[Carp]

The Dodgers haven't developed a single good hitting prospect outside of Will Smith in the last 7 years. So I am not sure where people are getting that from that they churn out good hitters. They consistently have highly rated farm systems, but they aren't producing much from it, aside from pitching.

And most of the Astros top hitters over the last few years are the result of picking at the top of the draft. Obviously, you have to give them credit for hitting on these picks, but it's far easier to find an elite hitter in the first 5 picks than around pick 20. We haven't picked higher than 20th since 2019 and haven't drafted a position player in the 1st round since then either.

 

[Enscheff]

Are we really complaining about Acuna's approach? It's a little early in the off-season for that isn't it? Acuna is walking at nearly the same pace Chipper did through his age 26 season, and Chipper was a lifetime .400 OBP hitter.

Contreras also walked 10% of the time when he came up. That's pretty damn good.

But a common theme among most of the hitters we have developed in the last 10 years is that they came up when they were 21 or earlier. How many 20 year olds are coming up with "plus" approaches at the plate? Juan Soto's of the world are pretty rare.

Yes, I am.

Acuna is more talented than Chipper. A plus approach at the plate in the modern game should be seeing him walking at a 15%-20% clip. Chipper was a first ballot HoF talent, but Acuna was a inner circle HoF talent along the lines of Aaron/Pujols/Bonds/etc.

So yeah, I expect the best offensive talent this organization has seen, perhaps ever (shoot me for suggesting Acuna may be more talented than Aaron), to be better than Chipper at getting on base given the modern understanding of the offensive game.

 

[Strike3urout]

I disagree about the Dodgers,Astros, and Red Sox. I think the difference is in their selection of prospects not in their teaching.

Maybe that's true. Then the Braves need to improve in this area.

I honestly don't get the reasoning of Andruw and Francoeur. They think they'd hit fewer HR by not swinging at so many sliders? Francoeur stopped being a useful hitter after age 27. Clearly, something wasn't working with his approach. For Andruw, it was age 30, and that has kept him out of the HOF so far.

Of course, not every hitter can be turned into a star through proper coaching. But I think that things like pitch recognition, reaction time, hand-eye-coordination etc., or even a good mental state at the plate, can be improved in most players. Or even the ability to think along with the pitcher, removing at least some of the guesswork.

 

[cajunrevenge]

Maybe that's true. Then the Braves need to improve in this area.

I honestly don't get the reasoning of Andruw and Francoeur. They think they'd hit fewer HR by not swinging at so many sliders? Francoeur stopped being a useful hitter after age 27. Clearly, something wasn't working with his approach. For Andruw, it was age 30, and that has kept him out of the HOF so far.

Of course, not every hitter can be turned into a star through proper coaching. But I think that things like pitch recognition, reaction time, hand-eye-coordination etc., or even a good mental state at the plate, can be improved in most players. Or even the ability to think along with the pitcher, removing at least some of the guesswork.

For as little as they draft hitting I think they are doing a great job. The point with Andruw and Francoeur is they had a very hard time recognizing a fastball from a slider until it was too late. That is kind of the point of the slider. They could wait longer to start swinging or use a more contact/defensive swing. They also hit a lot of homers on fastballs that werent sliders. If they were to take a more defensive approach to the slider that cuts down on their big swings on fastballs resulting in less power.

All the things you mentioned can be improved but each person also has their limits. I know for a fact we focus on those things because we drafted Andrelton based on off the chart hand eye coordination. I think people are doing a lot of guessing based on limited available evidence to reach their conclusions. Its a natural thing all fan bases do. Player strikes out. Clearly he just doesnt care enough. Player hits first pitch out to straight away center. Obviously lacking in approach. But these are all guesses based on very limited information. Like the team is just a bunch of ****wits who tell players just swing at everything except pitches down the middle. Its frankly asinine. If people want to say they dont think what they are doing is working thats fine, but in all my years following baseball I have rarely run across anything about an any team being as incompetent as people here seem to think our minor league hitting instruction is. If they were really that bad we wouldnt have all these all star hitters on the team. If they were that bad these players like MH wouldnt be reaching the majors so quickly and succeeding.