Braves fire Seitzer and assistant hitting coach. Also Fasano.

Strike3urout said:
Maybe that's true. Then the Braves need to improve in this area.

I honestly don't get the reasoning of Andruw and Francoeur. They think they'd hit fewer HR by not swinging at so many sliders? Francoeur stopped being a useful hitter after age 27. Clearly, something wasn't working with his approach. For Andruw, it was age 30, and that has kept him out of the HOF so far.

Of course, not every hitter can be turned into a star through proper coaching. But I think that things like pitch recognition, reaction time, hand-eye-coordination etc., or even a good mental state at the plate, can be improved in most players. Or even the ability to think along with the pitcher, removing at least some of the guesswork.
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The Frenchy case is very interesting because as he's gotten better in the booth (and I consider him one of the best color guys in the sport, and my personal favorite one to listen to), it's very clear he now understands what he SHOULD have done as a player. Can we imagine what his talents paired with even an MLB average approach at the plate could have been? Dale Murphy...maybe?

So why couldn't 24 year old Frenchy understand that swinging at everything is a bad idea? Why wasn't he taught these things? Who couldn't get through to him? Why not? Clearly he's smart enough to understand, so why did it take until now to sink in?
 
Francoeur displayed a pretty good approach with RISP and in key situations. His head was just too big to listen to what he was being told. If nothing else the media was all over him about it.
 
cajunrevenge said:
Francoeur displayed a pretty good approach with RISP and in key situations. His head was just too big to listen to what he was being told. If nothing else the media was all over him about it.
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I didn't listen when I was 24 and I wasn't a world class athlete with immediate success at professional level.
 
I did and got really bad advice. I dropped out of college and started a buisness with my Dad. Worked out okay but I had a free ride through college, Didnt even have to work a job. I would rather have that degree right now.
 
Enscheff said:
The Frenchy case is very interesting because as he's gotten better in the booth (and I consider him one of the best color guys in the sport, and my personal favorite one to listen to), it's very clear he now understands what he SHOULD have done as a player. Can we imagine what his talents paired with even an MLB average approach at the plate could have been? Dale Murphy...maybe?

So why couldn't 24 year old Frenchy understand that swinging at everything is a bad idea? Why wasn't he taught these things? Who couldn't get through to him? Why not? Clearly he's smart enough to understand, so why did it take until now to sink in?
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Well, being let go by your favorite team which seemed to be a match made in heaven, bouncing around the league for years, and basically being out of an everyday job by the time most players are in their prime may have gotten him to reconsider some things maybe.
Also, the end of Francoeur‘s career coincided with the emergence of Statcast. Seeing your performance measured and broken down like this may have opened his eyes a bit. He must have realized how certain metrics correlate with offensive performance. When he first came up, everyone knew he was a wild swinger. But they thought he was so talented he could make it work. People underestimated pitchers‘ ability to exploit hitters with bad habits.
 
Enscheff said:
Yes, I am.

Acuna is more talented than Chipper. A plus approach at the plate in the modern game should be seeing him walking at a 15%-20% clip. Chipper was a first ballot HoF talent, but Acuna was a inner circle HoF talent along the lines of Aaron/Pujols/Bonds/etc.

So yeah, I expect the best offensive talent this organization has seen, perhaps ever (shoot me for suggesting Acuna may be more talented than Aaron), to be better than Chipper at getting on base given the modern understanding of the offensive game.
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Purely as a hitter, I don't see how anyone can seriously make this sort of statement. Acuna is certainly more physically talented than Chipper was, but that doesn't mean much when it comes to hitting. Chipper was a once in a generation hitter. In fact, he is 25th all time in offensive WAR. The only non-roided up players above him that played in the last 50 years are Jeter, Schmidt, and Rickey Henderson (who actually might been roided up, since he played with Canseco/McGwire). Chipper didn't just get on base extremely well, but he also struck out at only a 13.3% clip for his career. He had more walks than Ks in his 19 year career.

Suffice to say, Chipper was among the elites of the elites at plate discipline. So yeah, it is a bit ridiculous to expect Acuna to be Chipper (or better) as a hitter.

I won't even touch Aaron. But he most definitely is not Aaron either.
 
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Strike3urout said:
Maybe that's true. Then the Braves need to improve in this area.

I honestly don't get the reasoning of Andruw and Francoeur. They think they'd hit fewer HR by not swinging at so many sliders? Francoeur stopped being a useful hitter after age 27. Clearly, something wasn't working with his approach. For Andruw, it was age 30, and that has kept him out of the HOF so far.

Of course, not every hitter can be turned into a star through proper coaching. But I think that things like pitch recognition, reaction time, hand-eye-coordination etc., or even a good mental state at the plate, can be improved in most players. Or even the ability to think along with the pitcher, removing at least some of the guesswork.
Click to expand...

Francoeur and Andruw are two wildly different cases. Francoeur was just a fundamentally flawed hitter. Players like him are a dime a dozen. He had plus power but that's about it. The league figured him out relatively quickly and that was more or less it for him. Andruw crapped out due to the abuse he had on his knees from playing center virtually everyday for over a decade and poor conditioning. His offensive approach wasn't as bad as you might think. He walked 10% of the time and struck out less than 20% through age 30. That's not Chipper level by any means but it's damn good considering the type of power he had. Andruw may have said he could have hit .300 all the time but that's probablly his ego talking. Andruw had an offensive skillset that he got the most out of until his body gave out.
 
Carp said:
Purely as a hitter, I don't see how anyone can seriously make this sort of statement. Acuna is certainly more physically talented than Chipper was, but that doesn't mean much when it comes to hitting. Chipper was a once in a generation hitter. In fact, he is 25th all time in offensive WAR. The only non-roided up players above him that played in the last 50 years are Jeter, Schmidt, and Rickey Henderson (who actually might been roided up, since he played with Canseco/McGwire). Chipper didn't just get on base extremely well, but he also struck out at only a 13.3% clip for his career. He had more walks than Ks in his 19 year career.

Suffice to say, Chipper was among the elites of the elites at plate discipline. So yeah, it is a bit ridiculous to expect Acuna to be Chipper (or better) as a hitter.

I won't even touch Aaron. But he most definitely is not Aaron either.
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We have now entered the point of the discussion where we are arguing semantics over the words "talent" and "skill".

While I won't argue Aaron and Chipper put together a longer string of success, and that Chipper had far superior skill/approach at the plate, Acuna is the most physically gifted pure baseball talent this organization has ever seen, with the possible exception of Andruw. If Chipper had Acuna's raw talent he would have been a top 5 hitter of all time with 600+ HRs and a .425+ career OBP with seasons of .500+ OBP like Bonds and Williams. The true generational superstars see their OBP climb as their power is more and more feared, but they have to be smart enough to take those walks. Chipper was, and it doesn't look like Acuna is...yet.

Either way, until Acuna walks at the rate a 50+ HR talent should be walking, I will always be critical of his approach. Of course, after destroying both knees, that talent may no longer be there, and this discussion may be pointless. We will be lucky to see Acuna be an above average player for the rest of his time in Atlanta, nevermind an MVP-level star. The Eric Davis vibes are truly depressing.
 
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Enscheff said:
We have now entered the point of the discussion where we are arguing semantics over the words "talent" and "skill".

While I won't argue Aaron and Chipper put together a longer string of success, and that Chipper had far superior skill/approach at the plate, Acuna is the most physically gifted pure baseball talent this organization has ever seen, with the possible exception of Andruw. If Chipper had Acuna's raw talent he would have been a top 5 hitter of all time with 600+ HRs and a .425+ career OBP with seasons of .500+ OBP like Bonds and Williams. The true generational superstars see their OBP climb as their power is more and more feared, but they have to be smart enough to take those walks. Chipper was, and it doesn't look like Acuna is...yet.

Either way, until Acuna walks at the rate a 50+ HR talent should be walking, I will always be critical of his approach. Of course, after destroying both knees, that talent may no longer be there, and this discussion may be pointless. We will be lucky to see Acuna be an above average player for the rest of his time in Atlanta, nevermind an MVP-level star. The Eric Davis vibes are truly depressing.
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Reading this is depressing. But also made me look back at his 2023 season, just to comprehend how special it was. He somehow dropped his K rate from 23% in 2022, to 11% in 2023, while at the same time maintaining his BB rate around 10%. All while still hitting for elite power. Incredible. Also interesting, in 2023, his BABIP was .338 and his actual batting average was .337. Not sure I've ever seen the gap between those two so close.
 
Carp said:
Purely as a hitter, I don't see how anyone can seriously make this sort of statement. Acuna is certainly more physically talented than Chipper was, but that doesn't mean much when it comes to hitting. Chipper was a once in a generation hitter. In fact, he is 25th all time in offensive WAR. The only non-roided up players above him that played in the last 50 years are Jeter, Schmidt, and Rickey Henderson (who actually might been roided up, since he played with Canseco/McGwire). Chipper didn't just get on base extremely well, but he also struck out at only a 13.3% clip for his career. He had more walks than Ks in his 19 year career.

Suffice to say, Chipper was among the elites of the elites at plate discipline. So yeah, it is a bit ridiculous to expect Acuna to be Chipper (or better) as a hitter.

I won't even touch Aaron. But he most definitely is not Aaron either.
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Where is this Jeter offensive WAR advantage coming from? Baserunning? Because Jeter was nowhere near the hitter Chipped was.
 
Enscheff said:
The Frenchy case is very interesting because as he's gotten better in the booth (and I consider him one of the best color guys in the sport, and my personal favorite one to listen to), it's very clear he now understands what he SHOULD have done as a player. Can we imagine what his talents paired with even an MLB average approach at the plate could have been? Dale Murphy...maybe?

So why couldn't 24 year old Frenchy understand that swinging at everything is a bad idea? Why wasn't he taught these things? Who couldn't get through to him? Why not? Clearly he's smart enough to understand, so why did it take until now to sink in?
Click to expand...

I will give it to you in a nutshell. The Braves were playing the Red Sox in an ESPN Sunday night game way back when. It was a slugfest that the Red Sox ended up winning. It was a close game throughout and at one juncture, Francoeur hit a fastball that was low-and-away (and I mean really low-and-away) on a line that was one of the hardest balls I've ever seen hit. It cleared the left field fence and the ball looked like it was never more than 12-15 feet off the ground. It was hit that hard. But, as was often the case with Francoeur, it was the blind squirrel finding an acorn. Francoeur probably went back to the dugout thinking "I can do that every time."

Sure, it's anecdotal and Francoeur consistentlly grounding out to the second baseman on similar pitches as his career continued should have been instructive to him. My guess is Francoeur was a beast in the weight room and thought that strength was all that really mattered. Big guy with great plate coverage, he probably thought if I can reach it, I can hit it with authority. That might work the first time through the league, but the other teams do scout the opposition.

Andruw is an easy one for me. In his prime, he could turn around the best fastballs in the game. That said, if I had a nickel for every time Andruw swung over a breaking ball down and away, I'd be wadig through a waist-deep bunch of nickels in my garage. In his defense, Andruw just wasn't a guy that you wanted to mess with his swing. Like Olson now and Ron Gant before him, Andruw was what he was. The downside risk of fiddling with his swing was probably greater than any upside that might have been realized.
 
CyYoung31 said:
Where is this Jeter offensive WAR advantage coming from? Baserunning? Because Jeter was nowhere near the hitter Chipped was.
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Guessing it is hits, SBs, and overall games, as Chipper missed 30+ games a year nearly every year his final 9 years.
 
Carp said:
Guessing it is hits, SBs, and overall games, as Chipper missed 30+ games a year nearly every year his final 9 years.
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And position. Looking at oWAR is really kind of useless imo. Adding a position value is useful in looking at the overall of a player and even pairing it with a defensive value. But hitting? Nah.

A better look at true hitting output is something like wRC (runs created) and wRAA (runs above average) which is based of wOBA.

In the last 50 years Chipper has 598 runs above average as a hitter. That's good for 8th most. Jeter is all the way down at 50th with 346.
 
I’d also like to point out that Chipper would’ve been an inner circle hall of famer if he didn’t spend the last 9 years of his career injured.
 
thewupk said:
And position. Looking at oWAR is really kind of useless imo. Adding a position value is useful in looking at the overall of a player and even pairing it with a defensive value. But hitting? Nah.

A better look at true hitting output is something like wRC (runs created) and wRAA (runs above average) which is based of wOBA.

In the last 50 years Chipper has 598 runs above average as a hitter. That's good for 8th most. Jeter is all the way down at 50th with 346.
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That seems pretty accurate.
 
CyYoung31 said:
I’d also like to point out that Chipper would’ve been an inner circle hall of famer if he didn’t spend the last 9 years of his career injured.
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If only the DH came sooner to the NL. He probably would have insisted on playing the field anyways.
 
thewupk said:
And position. Looking at oWAR is really kind of useless imo. Adding a position value is useful in looking at the overall of a player and even pairing it with a defensive value. But hitting? Nah.

A better look at true hitting output is something like wRC (runs created) and wRAA (runs above average) which is based of wOBA.

In the last 50 years Chipper has 598 runs above average as a hitter. That's good for 8th most. Jeter is all the way down at 50th with 346.
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Great. Let's give the guy a job!
 
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