Braves Need to Brace for assult on Logo, Chop, History in 2021

Tapate50 said:
This is exactly how we get teams called the Devil Rays.
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And I believe they are now simply the "Rays" seeing that the term "Devil" offended some of a certain stripe. I think each team should just be a color. Seattle Aquamarines. San Francisco Greens. Tampa Bay Oranges. Etc.
 
50PoundHead said:
And I believe they are now simply the "Rays" seeing that the term "Devil" offended some of a certain stripe. I think each team should just be a color. Seattle Aquamarines. San Francisco Greens. Tampa Bay Oranges. Etc.
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Naturally.

Wait, those are pretty offensive names. Not in the racial\stereo typical way, just offensive.
 
IAJon said:
Ooooh. “Greens” could be used to refer to environmentalists, and that may offend some people. Better to stay away from that one.
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I just thought Greens was appropriate for San Francisco. I suppose we could go with Burnt Siennas.
 
Jaw said:
I don't have a problem with changing the name. I don't even have a problem with changing the name because of pressure from some numbskulls writing on Twitter or The Atlantic. It's Liberty Media's team and they can do what they like with it.

I also don't have a problem with any non partisan organizations representing actual Native Americans who are offended by any of the Braves symbolism. I would like to hear details and, as Super says, nuance, but that's a legitimate position that deserves to be heard and discussed with an open mind.

My problem is with the usual suspects taking up the torch of victimhood on behalf of others who they believe just aren't enlightened enough to do it themselves, and with the attitude that we should just cave to these people. No. We should mock these people's position, we should point out their hypocrisy, we should tell them, as the Depression-era man who raised me used to say, to hoe their own row. We should never let them set the agenda, or have a speaking part in an adult conversation.
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My understanding has always been it has been Native American groups that have protested dating back at least to the 1991 World Series and various times pre-dating that at FSU.

If others take their part, well that's sort of how we make changes.
 
Super said:
um, no. this is where context and nuance is important. i don't even know how to respond as you're talking broad strokes where i'm clearly not.
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You said if it bothers just one person then it should go away. That's the context you provided. I think that's a bad argument, because anything can offend one person.

I agree context matters, but I'm not convinced the context in this case warrants banning a thing that fan enjoy.

The argument that you might as well get rid of it is an argument that doesn't consider context.
 
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“Braves” isn’t an offensive name, so I don’t even know why we’re discussing a name change.

It’s the chop that’s at question here, and rightfully so.
 
I guess I just don't get it. No real people or culture has ever done such a chop, and no one is using it in a deprecating manner. The outrage would make sense to me if fans of another team were doing it in some "haha the Braves are a bunch of dumb indians" manner, but that isn't happening. It's literally a made up, not at all based on fact or history, celebration.
 
Jaw said:
I guess I just don't get it. No real people or culture has ever done such a chop, and no one is using it in a deprecating manner. The outrage would make sense to me if fans of another team were doing it in some "haha the Braves are a bunch of dumb indians" manner, but that isn't happening. It's literally a made up, not at all based on fact or history, celebration.
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Hey, I’m not advocating for it to be removed either. It makes no difference to me, and I’m someone who participates in the chop at every game I attend. I can understand where someone is coming from if they find it misrepresentative if Native American culture though. Misrepresentation can be disrespectful and even harmful, especially to a culture desperately clinging on to their last bits of identity.
 
50PoundHead said:
And I believe they are now simply the "Rays" seeing that the term "Devil" offended some of a certain stripe. I think each team should just be a color. Seattle Aquamarines. San Francisco Greens. Tampa Bay Oranges. Etc.
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You just made a whole bunch of color blind enemies
 
Jaw said:
I don't have a problem with changing the name. I don't even have a problem with changing the name because of pressure from some numbskulls writing on Twitter or The Atlantic. It's Liberty Media's team and they can do what they like with it.

I also don't have a problem with any non partisan organizations representing actual Native Americans who are offended by any of the Braves symbolism. I would like to hear details and, as Super says, nuance, but that's a legitimate position that deserves to be heard and discussed with an open mind.

My problem is with the usual suspects taking up the torch of victimhood on behalf of others who they believe just aren't enlightened enough to do it themselves, and with the attitude that we should just cave to these people. No. We should mock these people's position, we should point out their hypocrisy, we should tell them, as the Depression-era man who raised me used to say, to hoe their own row. We should never let them set the agenda, or have a speaking part in an adult conversation.
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This
 
Super said:
i'm not personally offended by it and don't think it's a big deal.
my enjoyment, or the enjoyment of my potential future children, means very little if it legitimately bothers people, especially if they're within that demo. people go to other team's game and enjoy them just fine without it. i think our fans can adapt. in the grand scheme of things, i think you're better off not bothering even one person than worrying about how fans will enjoy games anymore.
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I would really hate to live in a world where I had to worry about every single thing I did on the off chance that it might bother or offend someone. People can take offense to really subjective things.

I even think racism is pretty subjective nowadays. You have some people who actively search for racism and can find it in anything, some people who never think anything is racist, and people who are, you know, normal.

Southcack thinks the chop is racist. That's his opinion. I think its maybe slightly stupid and mildly demeaning, but I think racist is too strong of a word. Its about as racist as Lucky the Leprechaun is towards Irish people. Its a caricature, but not all racial caricatures have to be racist. Labeling something as racist wields too much power and has too much stigma attached to it for me to label silly things like an in game chant like that.

It just seems like we want to suck the fun out of everything because there is a small minority of people who will yell about it on twitter. If we have to get rid of the Tomahawk Chop, fine, I guess I could compromise on that even if I don't like it. But if we have to get rid of the Tomahawk Logo or the name "Braves" itself then that would be beyond silly at that point.
 
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weso1 said:
You said if it bothers just one person then it should go away. That's the context you provided. I think that's a bad argument, because anything can offend one person.

I agree context matters, but I'm not convinced the context in this case warrants banning a thing that fan enjoy.

The argument that you might as well get rid of it is an argument that doesn't consider context.
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This.

I've seen quite a few folks on twitter saying air conditioning bothers people.

Removing it would maybe kill me
 
Southcack77 said:
It's worthwhile to examine what it is you are giving up when evaluating the cost of doing the right thing.


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"The Right Thing" is also almost always subjective. People have different values, people have different beliefs, and people have different thresholds for offense. You and Super are creating completely unsustainable ideas because you seem to have this notion that everyone agrees this crosses some arbitrary threshold of racism. They don't agree.

It is absolutely impossible to create an environment where nobody is offended by anything. Trying to create an environment like that can lead to some pretty bad outcomes like people being jailed or fined for teaching their dog to Sieg Heil as a joke or a student getting expelled from school for the suggestion that there are only two genders. Maybe they shouldn't have done those things, but the notion that they should be prevented from doing so or punished from doing so seems absolutely bat**** crazy to me.
 
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Jaw said:
I don't have a problem with changing the name. I don't even have a problem with changing the name because of pressure from some numbskulls writing on Twitter or The Atlantic. It's Liberty Media's team and they can do what they like with it.

I also don't have a problem with any non partisan organizations representing actual Native Americans who are offended by any of the Braves symbolism. I would like to hear details and, as Super says, nuance, but that's a legitimate position that deserves to be heard and discussed with an open mind.

My problem is with the usual suspects taking up the torch of victimhood on behalf of others who they believe just aren't enlightened enough to do it themselves, and with the attitude that we should just cave to these people. No. We should mock these people's position, we should point out their hypocrisy, we should tell them, as the Depression-era man who raised me used to say, to hoe their own row. We should never let them set the agenda, or have a speaking part in an adult conversation.
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I agree with all of this wholeheartedly.

Now, I'm completely ignorant to the actual facts in this case regarding who's upset and requesting changes, but I too am sick of the "woke" people on Twitter being catered to simply because they are the loudest group. It's getting beyond ridiculous with the hyper-PC era...when Keanu Reves is lauded for not putting his hands on a woman when taking a friendly picture with them as if that's the new normal form of respectful man...seriously?

Sorry to get political, but the Libtards need to realize why they can't win elections against child molesters and con men.
 
I think the offended people are mostly a bunch of millennial slacktivists who are offended by pretty much everything. They’ll probably recruit a very small group of native Americans and they’ll protest to show how trendy and enlightened they are. Then if they get their way they’ll immediately pick another battle that we or someone else will have to deal with. They are not worth appeasing because they actually like these battles.
 
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