yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
If they can get him and treat him like a prospect as far as control-wise goes, he is worth a lot. I'm not sure how he's a safer bet than Heyward long-term, but they're both going to get paid eventually.
Braves‘ offseason quietly criticized throughout the industry
- Thread starter Braves1976
- Start date
If they can get him and treat him like a prospect as far as control-wise goes, he is worth a lot. I'm not sure how he's a safer bet than Heyward long-term, but they're both going to get paid eventually.
This
What! We landed Kenshin Kawakami!
NYCBrave
Well-known member
NYC is spot on, if we went for it, Justin/Jason walk for nothing, Hart looks like an idiot.
Now, the deals arent great at all, no one disputes that but if Hart knows neither will re-up, why keep both for a slim shot to make the playoffs?
Jason deal is alright.
Justin deal is more of a depth move, and might have not let them take a stab at Manny if it didnt happen.
Markakis deal is a bit of a head scratcher but they need someone to play RF
I think the main criticisms of the Heyward and Upton deals come from those who had unrealistic expectations that we could land a Teixeira like haul of prospects, or top prospects like Walker from Seattle. Could Hart have played the market better and landed any of those? We can only speculate.
Andruw Jones?
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
The Braves "discovered" Andruw and had an inside track on signing him. Curacao wasn't heavily scouted in those days. I think he's referring to signing older, more established internationals, either posted from Asian leagues or defecting from Cuba, because in either of those cases, money is the limiting factor.
I agree. Even though we've been reported to be looking at a few of the big-name int'l guys, I just assume that we're never actually going to be the one to land them.
I hope for the day that the Johns will tell me "that's just an assumption."
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Well said. We've been in the uncomfortable middle the past few seasons (always missing a little something). I didn't particularly care for the Wren era, but I think he felt pressure to always make the effort to contend instead of doing a re-build and we're seeing the results of that now. I think there was a disconnect between ownership and the baseball operation that Hart can maybe fix. Problem is, he's made a ton of decisions (some of them head-scratchers) and everything seems to be in flux.
MadduxFanII
Swallowed by Mark Bowman
The Braves won 190 games over 2012 and 2013, and that was coming off 180 wins over 2010 and 2011. I mean, I can't say that no general manager in the league would re-build after those four seasons, because Billy Beane exists, but 29 other GMs would have gone into 2014 with the reasonable intention of competing. I absolutely cannot get on board with the idea that it was obvious we needed to tear down the thing and re-build...what, in 2013, when we won 96 games and the division? In 2012, when we won 94 games?
I really think the struggles last year are skewing how some fans are looking at the organization's recent past. We were a really damn good team for several years.
I really think the struggles last year are skewing how some fans are looking at the organization's recent past. We were a really damn good team for several years.
They either weren't born by the mid to late 80's or aren't old enough to remember.
dak
Well-known member
Agreed, this off season is the first one in quite some time where it has made sense to focus on rebuilding. Sure, the farm system was week last offseason, but we clearly had the talent to contend going into the 2014 season. I don't even think Billy Beane would have tried a pre-emptive rebuild with our roster going into last season.
NinersSBChamps
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br> 2015 (Co-Winner)</BR>20
How did this awesome Braves team fare in 2014? Basically the same team as 2013 except McCann and Hudson is what we heard all of 2014.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
A few of the people who were doomers and gloomers because we lost in the playoffs. But the prevailing opinion was lets get it going for 2014. Honestly even in 2014 the prevailing opinion was good but not as good as last year until September happened. DOn't get how Fredi has a job after 2 times they Braves collapsed in September to be bounced from the playoffs.
Tapate50
Well-known member
We are going to have to at least dabble in the international market to be competitive. IMO being on the back end of that trend has hurt this franchise. We have to realize that if we aren't going to compete for talent there our competition is. While I think we are starting to, we are playing catch up to some extent and still shopping from the clearance rack. It has been brutal watching other teams get that shot of excitement and we just know we aren't even playing the same deck of cards.
Horsehide Harry
<B>Mr. Free Trade</B>
My position has been for several years that the Team was badly constructed, no matter how many wins they got in the regular season. How many of the last 4-5 years did the Braves enter the season as the favorite to win the NL East? It's a testament to those who played that they actually did some, and won the WC as well. However, it also took some much more talented teams to have very bad luck and do some choking for it to happen.
During that time my position has been that the Braves:
1. Had no true Ace. Hudson was never an Ace, even though he was very good in his prime, but definitely wasn't at any point in the last five years.
2. Had no true starting depth. A team can get away without a true Ace if it has several #2 type starters. The rotation has been mostly filled with #3's and #4's.
3. There has been no alpha dog position player. Chipper was that guy for years. But he was nowhere near his peak his last couple of years. Good teams need at least one position player on their team who can be considered among the very best at his position if not baseball - or they need extraordinary depth of "good" players. The Braves haven't had that. Freeman is the current keystone and he is no better than the 8th or 10th best player AT HIS POSITION.
4. Good teams have a real hard time overcoming more than 2 or so "black hole" positions. The Braves over the last 4-5 years have routinely had 2-4.
5. You have to have room to spend money to get over the hump if needed. The Braves haven't had that. They have essentially thrown virtually every dollar in the pot to get the team ready for the season and had little to no room to add if it meant taking on salary during the season.
6. The Braves have not had a deep farm system so they had attractive prospects to make low money in season trades. But, that wasn't because they didn't draft that way. The players for the most part just didn't wow anyone.
7. The Braves changed draft philosophy so they could limp along with players who would get to the majors quickly but weren't necessarily the most talented players available. Some of this worked out with Wood and Minor. But neither of those two guys appear to be more than serviceable #3 with a maybe ceiling of #2. Several of the college reaches failed to work out and when they did draft HS talent they failed miserably. This left no margin for impact help at the ML level or fodder for impactful in season trades.
8. The team was badly constructed. The money that was available was all committed or being committed to players at positions that, even if they worked out - which most didn't, put the team in the position of paying premium dollars for the position. Big money was given to a 2B, mainly because he provided big power. How many 2B are out there that do that? Not many. So, that in itself, made the commitment to Uggla a premium for his position. The pool of power 2b is small which makes the numbers bigger. BJ Upton was brought in to play CF and bat LO (why they thought he could is a different discussion) and they paid a premium. When McCann was on the team they were fortunate that he was playing out the back end of a very team friendly contract. It's much better to follow traditional baseball thinking when choosing your players and where and how you get your offense. Baseball itself stacks the deck that way as it moves players through the minor leagues - this guy has big power but is short on the instincts to play SS so let's move him to 3B. This guy has no power, but has big speed, instincts and can get on base, let's make him a CF. There are always exceptions. But you PAY a premium for the exceptions.
9. The organization had a lot of balls in the air and kept them there for a long time. But for me at least, it was easy to see where it led which is where we are: A team with little real hope to compete, no real cash increase to buy your way out and a barren minor league system.
During that time my position has been that the Braves:
1. Had no true Ace. Hudson was never an Ace, even though he was very good in his prime, but definitely wasn't at any point in the last five years.
2. Had no true starting depth. A team can get away without a true Ace if it has several #2 type starters. The rotation has been mostly filled with #3's and #4's.
3. There has been no alpha dog position player. Chipper was that guy for years. But he was nowhere near his peak his last couple of years. Good teams need at least one position player on their team who can be considered among the very best at his position if not baseball - or they need extraordinary depth of "good" players. The Braves haven't had that. Freeman is the current keystone and he is no better than the 8th or 10th best player AT HIS POSITION.
4. Good teams have a real hard time overcoming more than 2 or so "black hole" positions. The Braves over the last 4-5 years have routinely had 2-4.
5. You have to have room to spend money to get over the hump if needed. The Braves haven't had that. They have essentially thrown virtually every dollar in the pot to get the team ready for the season and had little to no room to add if it meant taking on salary during the season.
6. The Braves have not had a deep farm system so they had attractive prospects to make low money in season trades. But, that wasn't because they didn't draft that way. The players for the most part just didn't wow anyone.
7. The Braves changed draft philosophy so they could limp along with players who would get to the majors quickly but weren't necessarily the most talented players available. Some of this worked out with Wood and Minor. But neither of those two guys appear to be more than serviceable #3 with a maybe ceiling of #2. Several of the college reaches failed to work out and when they did draft HS talent they failed miserably. This left no margin for impact help at the ML level or fodder for impactful in season trades.
8. The team was badly constructed. The money that was available was all committed or being committed to players at positions that, even if they worked out - which most didn't, put the team in the position of paying premium dollars for the position. Big money was given to a 2B, mainly because he provided big power. How many 2B are out there that do that? Not many. So, that in itself, made the commitment to Uggla a premium for his position. The pool of power 2b is small which makes the numbers bigger. BJ Upton was brought in to play CF and bat LO (why they thought he could is a different discussion) and they paid a premium. When McCann was on the team they were fortunate that he was playing out the back end of a very team friendly contract. It's much better to follow traditional baseball thinking when choosing your players and where and how you get your offense. Baseball itself stacks the deck that way as it moves players through the minor leagues - this guy has big power but is short on the instincts to play SS so let's move him to 3B. This guy has no power, but has big speed, instincts and can get on base, let's make him a CF. There are always exceptions. But you PAY a premium for the exceptions.
9. The organization had a lot of balls in the air and kept them there for a long time. But for me at least, it was easy to see where it led which is where we are: A team with little real hope to compete, no real cash increase to buy your way out and a barren minor league system.
Heyward
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br>'13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner
Again, maybe it was a fluke, BUT, if neither JUp or Jason would re-up, whats the use of keeping them?
Serious question.
For 1 year and and watch them leave for compensation picks.