Braves‘ offseason quietly criticized throughout the industry

NYCBrave said:
I think the main criticisms of the Heyward and Upton deals come from those who had unrealistic expectations that we could land a Teixeira like haul of prospects, or top prospects like Walker from Seattle. Could Hart have played the market better and landed any of those? We can only speculate.
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I can agree with that but why would teams trade elite prospects for 1-yr rentals?

Expecting that type of haul was extremely wishful thinking.
 
goldfly said:
ftr

i have been rather loud about my criticism of the offseason thus far

it's seems to be a bad plan

and i hope i am 100% wrong
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For someone who hates it, in inbetween, what is the use of keeping Jason and Justin if they wont extend.

No one here other than ramadon knows what happened behind the doors.
 
Many people don't agree with the plan of rebuilding but I honestly think we've done well in most moves outside of the Upton deal
 
Heyward said:
For someone who hates it, in inbetween, what is the use of keeping Jason and Justin if they wont extend.

No one here other than ramadon knows what happened behind the doors.
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I don't know? Go for it and try to win a WS? We had virtually zero hitters (besides maybe Gattis) hit above expectations. Every player hit at what was expected or worse. That is bad luck. The offense would not have been that bad in 2015 especially with some tweaks like providing a platoon partner for Chris. I don't see how much changed from going into the 2014 season then the 2015 season other then a horrible end to the year. I guess that much was enough to skew the perceptions of a lot of fans and the front office. Because nobody was calling for a rebuild a year ago. Everyone was talking about having a great young core going forward. It was expected to keep one of Jason or Justin. The money was there to do it.

Instead we trade both of them. We moved Gattis to the outfield where most of his value tanks. We put a terrible hitter in at catcher. We trade a guy who is projected to put up a line of 270/341/365 - 706 at a position that hit 256/313/373 - 686 last year for an injured reliever and some slot money that likely won't matter much. We sign a 31 year old outfielder to a 4/44 deal who has an OPS+ of 108 and averaged 1.6 WAR the last 6 years.

We stockpile pitching when we are in the pitching richest era in 30 years. We need offense and we traded 3 of our 4 hitters that know how to get on base. I just don't see the overall logic. Want to rebuild? Sure. But it's hard to swallow when a year ago we were under the belief this was a team that was young and built to last for a long time with all these extensions. A year later it looks a lot different. Get all the pitching you want but it's not going to help when your in the bottom third in runs scored.
 
thewupk said:
I don't see how much changed from going into the 2014 season then the 2015 season other then a horrible end to the year.
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Entering the 2014 season, we had a $110m payroll and a team that was projected to have a win total in the high 80s. Had we kept Jason and Justin, we would have already been near $100m in payroll with two glaring holes in the rotation and some smaller needs in other areas (2B, LH relief, a 6th SP for depth like 2014 Gavin Floyd). This is a result of arbitration and contractual raises exceeding the payroll we shed from non-tenders and departing free agents. We were not positioned to fill ANY of those needs from our depleted farm system, so it would have required some other-worldly bargain shopping on the FA market to assemble a contending team. Realistically, we were looking at a team that would have been projected to win 80 or so games. Thus the decision to rebuild now versus then.
 
dak said:
Entering the 2014 season, we had a $110m payroll and a team that was projected to have a win total in the high 80s. Had we kept Jason and Justin, we would have already been near $100m in payroll with two glaring holes in the rotation and some smaller needs in other areas (2B, LH relief, a 6th SP for depth like 2014 Gavin Floyd). This is a result of arbitration and contractual raises exceeding the payroll we shed from non-tenders and departing free agents. We were not positioned to fill ANY of those needs from our depleted farm system, so it would have required some other-worldly bargain shopping on the FA market to assemble a contending team. Realistically, we were looking at a team that would have been projected to win 80 or so games. Thus the decision to rebuild now versus then.
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This times a billion.

If we keep Jason/Justin, we cant do nothing but bargain bin shop.
 
thewupk said:
I don't know? Go for it and try to win a WS? We had virtually zero hitters (besides maybe Gattis) hit above expectations. Every player hit at what was expected or worse. That is bad luck. The offense would not have been that bad in 2015 especially with some tweaks like providing a platoon partner for Chris. I don't see how much changed from going into the 2014 season then the 2015 season other then a horrible end to the year. I guess that much was enough to skew the perceptions of a lot of fans and the front office. Because nobody was calling for a rebuild a year ago. Everyone was talking about having a great young core going forward. It was expected to keep one of Jason or Justin. The money was there to do it.

Instead we trade both of them. We moved Gattis to the outfield where most of his value tanks. We put a terrible hitter in at catcher. We trade a guy who is projected to put up a line of 270/341/365 - 706 at a position that hit 256/313/373 - 686 last year for an injured reliever and some slot money that likely won't matter much. We sign a 31 year old outfielder to a 4/44 deal who has an OPS+ of 108 and averaged 1.6 WAR the last 6 years.

We stockpile pitching when we are in the pitching richest era in 30 years. We need offense and we traded 3 of our 4 hitters that know how to get on base. I just don't see the overall logic. Want to rebuild? Sure. But it's hard to swallow when a year ago we were under the belief this was a team that was young and built to last for a long time with all these extensions. A year later it looks a lot different. Get all the pitching you want but it's not going to help when your in the bottom third in runs scored.
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As dak said, if we kept Jason and Justin, we have no money to spend other than bargain bin shop.

With holes at 2B, 2 rotation spots, depth in the minors for the rotation, outfield depth, bullpen, etc.

And im not convinced with Jason and Justin, we're any better than a 85-87 win team at BEST.
 
dak said:
Entering the 2014 season, we had a $110m payroll and a team that was projected to have a win total in the high 80s. Had we kept Jason and Justin, we would have already been near $100m in payroll with two glaring holes in the rotation and some smaller needs in other areas (2B, LH relief, a 6th SP for depth like 2014 Gavin Floyd). This is a result of arbitration and contractual raises exceeding the payroll we shed from non-tenders and departing free agents. We were not positioned to fill ANY of those needs from our depleted farm system, so it would have required some other-worldly bargain shopping on the FA market to assemble a contending team. Realistically, we were looking at a team that would have been projected to win 80 or so games. Thus the decision to rebuild now versus then.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe McGuirk was quoted as saying the Braves had the ability to flex the payroll 'slightly north' of $115MM for the 2015 season. Presuming that figure is accurate, I don't think it would be been too difficult to patch the holes you mentioned. Would it have been ideal? Certainly not, but also far from impossible.
 
emk418 said:
Many people don't agree with the plan of rebuilding but I honestly think we've done well in most moves outside of the Upton deal
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This is not really a rebuild though. That would entail tearing down the core and starting fresh. Hart has moved superfluous bits of varying values to essentially reformulate on the fly. Like slapping lipstick on a pig.
 
Heyward said:
As dak said, if we kept Jason and Justin, we have no money to spend other than bargain bin shop.

With holes at 2B, 2 rotation spots, depth in the minors for the rotation, outfield depth, bullpen, etc.

And im not convinced with Jason and Justin, we're any better than a 85-87 win team at BEST.
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"At best"? We're much better than that.
 
Heyward said:
As dak said, if we kept Jason and Justin, we have no money to spend other than bargain bin shop.

With holes at 2B, 2 rotation spots, depth in the minors for the rotation, outfield depth, bullpen, etc.

And im not convinced with Jason and Justin, we're any better than a 85-87 win team at BEST.
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so trade Heward for Miller and keep the rest of the team? Like I said the expectation was we could keep one of them. Make the trade now and extend Justin. Holes at 2b? La Stella is projected to provide above average offense for the position and be an average player overall. How is that a hole? Harang just signed for 5 million. We have Hale for a rotation spot. We traded two of our better bullpen spots. I would argue our outfield depth and bullpen depth is worse now then it was at the end of the year. Again there were other options. The Braves FO didn't like them and wanted to start over. This is largely the same FO even with Wren as the GM. Seems like they made Wren the scapegoat and tore the team down.
 
Hawk said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe McGuirk was quoted as saying the Braves had the ability to flex the payroll 'slightly north' of $115MM for the 2015 season. Presuming that figure is accurate, I don't think it would be been too difficult to patch the holes you mentioned. Would it have been ideal? Certainly not, but also far from impossible.
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I don't remember seeing that quote specifically, but it wouldn't surprise me if we had the ability to flex up to $115m. That might entail borrowing against the 2016 payroll though. For me personally, $115m wouldn't have been the number that would change my mind on going for it. $125m or so would probably change my thinking though. Or at least make it a real tough call.

I too wish there was a better term to use than "rebuild" to describe what we're doing. We are fortunate not to be in the position of teams like the Astros and Cubs that have had to go into a 3-4 year strip down mode to emerge competitive. That is your quintessential rebuild. I see us on a more 1-2 year path.
 
dak said:
I don't remember seeing that quote specifically, but it wouldn't surprise me if we had the ability to flex up to $115m. That might entail borrowing against the 2016 payroll though. For me personally, $115m wouldn't have been the number that would change my mind on going for it. $125m or so would probably change my thinking though. Or at least make it a real tough call.

I too wish there was a better term to use than "rebuild" to describe what we're doing. We are fortunate not to be in the position of teams like the Astros and Cubs that have had to go into a 3-4 year strip down mode to emerge competitive. That is your quintessential rebuild. I see us on a more 1-2 year path.
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I think the Braves would have been better off if they went this route. The pieces we got back in all these deals isn't going to contribute a lot to the major league team imo. It's depth sure. But there just isn't much quality there. Broken down pitchers and hitters with meh potential.
 
thewupk said:
I think the Braves would have been better off if they went this route. The pieces we got back in all these deals isn't going to contribute a lot to the major league team imo. It's depth sure. But there just isn't much quality there. Broken down pitchers and hitters with meh potential.
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Call me crazy, but I think we have a chance to be sneaky-competitive in 2016 if we play our cards reasonably well. You can bet they'll field a legit contender in 2017. I doubt we hear anything on a payroll increase for quite some time, but I'd be really surprised if our payroll isn't noticeably bumped up from $110m by the 2017 season.
 
I'd like to think that we're on a 1-2 year path, but we're going to need to find some guys who can hit the ball if we're going to make that stick.
 
Julio3000 said:
I'd like to think that we're on a 1-2 year path, but we're going to need to find some guys who can hit the ball if we're going to make that stick.
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Agree. We didn't get that Wil Meyers type in the Heyward and JUp deals so we're stuck. The only way to get a bat would be subtract a bat in Gattis. Unless some miracle happens and we tank and end up with a college bat that can be ready in 2 years (what is that....a 1% chance of happening?).

Peraza is a potential D and O upgrade, but he's not a hitter that will strike fear in anyone.

Right now it looks like we're fixed at 1B, SS, 3B, CF (maybe we could drop), and RF. C isn't going to be a place to upgrade the O unless we put Gattis back there.

What we really need to upgrade the offense is for a couple of current guys to perform nearer their ceilings. FF has been very good, but he could be better. Simmons could improve dramatically at the plate. CJ could go half way between his first year with us and the last. Gattis could improve OBP..........I don't think any of this is going to happen but I don't see how else we upgrade the offense................................

UNLESS.......Cuban guy picks us over Yanks, etc and actually is really good. I think I saw a recent article that gave us a 10% chance to get him.
 
Freddie really can't be that much better. Last year he was the 15th best hitter in baseball, year before 10th. I think that's a safe place to bet he stays. I don't think he'll move into a consistent top 10 hitter, may have a year or 2 there cause of a bad year around the league or him having all the right stuff happen, but I can't see that being expected of him.
 
dak said:
Call me crazy, but I think we have a chance to be sneaky-competitive in 2016 if we play our cards reasonably well. You can bet they'll field a legit contender in 2017. I doubt we hear anything on a payroll increase for quite some time, but I'd be really surprised if our payroll isn't noticeably bumped up from $110m by the 2017 season.
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I do see the payroll being bumped if needed however I just am curious where we are going to find the hitters to compete.
 
thewupk said:
I do see the payroll being bumped if needed however I just am curious where we are going to find the hitters to compete.
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I don't suspect we'll add an impact bat via FA in 2016, but 2017 is a distinct possibility.

We need for at least one of our young players to exceed expectations offensively (Simmons, Bethancourt, Peterson, Peraza, Kubitza). I think this is a distinct possibility, though I'm not holding out much hope for Bethancourt to be that guy.

We have some trade assets that can be used to either acquire offense directly, or indirectly by acquiring pitching prospects to flip. Gattis and Minor are probably the two best trade chips currently, and we could also flip some relievers for prospects this Summer.
 
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