Braves To Sign Jeff Francoeur To Minor League Deal

Horsehide Harry said:
People here are still building the team for THIS year. This signing is exactly what the Braves should have been doing all along, with more of it. Trade Markakis for best return, clear his payroll and play Jeff/Swisher out there in 2016. So what if the difference for 2016 is 3-4 WAR. What does that really mean anyway in 2016? Nothing. But Markakis' $22M over 17 and 18 could mean quite a bit.
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Problem is we'd need someone willing to take Markakis and all his salary. I have a feeling if someoen was willing to do that, we would have unloaded him given the glut of OF players we have (Inciarte, Olivera, Markakis, Bourn, Swisher, Mallex, Cunningham, and guys who're utility capable of playing OF spots like KJ and Bonifacio) To me if anyone was taking Marakakis and all his salary and offering us any kind of return and we said no, we deserve a mental checkup. Same thing with Bourn and Swisher, no one is taking them off our hands, if anyone would have taken them and half their salary they'd be gone.

Only shot we have of getting rid of Markakis is a team loses a LF or RF in ST and needs a long term replacement and has a lot of cash to burn. I'm thinking of a Dodgers type of team. Maybe the Royals or Orioles will get desperate and take him, but from what I've read, the price for him is too high. So we can only hope one of them gets desperate.

My concern with Francoeur is the team falls to old allegiances. And we're carrying a ton of OFers. Like my number 1 fear is that our OF is Markakis, Inciarte, and Olivera, and our bench is Francoeur, Bourn, Swisher, KJ and Flowers with us just praying that we don't lose 2 IFs in the same game.
 
Runnin said:
This is ALL PR. The organization just needs more recognizable faces.
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I think that has a lot to do with it. My guess the long term plan is to find a place for him on the broadcast team. Maybe not in the booth, but doing something with the media.
 
zitothebrave said:
Problem is we'd need someone willing to take Markakis and all his salary. I have a feeling if someoen was willing to do that, we would have unloaded him given the glut of OF players we have (Inciarte, Olivera, Markakis, Bourn, Swisher, Mallex, Cunningham, and guys who're utility capable of playing OF spots like KJ and Bonifacio) To me if anyone was taking Marakakis and all his salary and offering us any kind of return and we said no, we deserve a mental checkup. Same thing with Bourn and Swisher, no one is taking them off our hands, if anyone would have taken them and half their salary they'd be gone.

Only shot we have of getting rid of Markakis is a team loses a LF or RF in ST and needs a long term replacement and has a lot of cash to burn. I'm thinking of a Dodgers type of team. Maybe the Royals or Orioles will get desperate and take him, but from what I've read, the price for him is too high. So we can only hope one of them gets desperate.

My concern with Francoeur is the team falls to old allegiances. And we're carrying a ton of OFers. Like my number 1 fear is that our OF is Markakis, Inciarte, and Olivera, and our bench is Francoeur, Bourn, Swisher, KJ and Flowers with us just praying that we don't lose 2 IFs in the same game.
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Well, I think (and hope) that now that Fowler is off the table, that the market for Markakis and Inciarte will really develop. I still have high hopes for an Inciarte to the Cubs trade for some young controllable power bats. I think Markakis still could go to a team like the White Sox or maybe the Rangers. If it gets a better prospect(s) in return, then you pay some of his salary. The Braves are under by about $10M right now and moving Markakis would add another $11M, with Markakis being owed about $33M over the next 3, so the Braves could send $12M to $15M if it gets a better return.

What I would like to see is Inciarte and Teheran to the Cubs for: Soler, Baez and Contreras
Aybar and Markakis to the WS for: RHP Carson Fulmer and OF Miker Adolfo

Start the year:

CF: Bourn/Smith
2B: Peterson/Beckham
SS: Baez
1B: Freeman
RF: Soler
3B: Johnson/Garcia
LF: Olivera/Swisher
C: Flowers/AJ

Rotation: Norris, Chacin, Kendrick, Wisler, Banuelos
Pen: Viz, Grilli, Johnson, Winkler, McKirahan, Marksberry, Krol

Is that a great team? No. Is it more than 5 games worse than what is currently there going into the season? IMO NO. And in 2017 and beyond, you have a number of new pieces and more payroll flexibility. The only real downside could potentially be that Teheran turns into the pitcher he was 2-3 years ago as opposed to the pitcher he was last year. But, even that downside isn't that concerning since the team just spent the past 18 months stockpiling arms so they could use some of them to trade to fill needs.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Well, I think (and hope) that now that Fowler is off the table, that the market for Markakis and Inciarte will really develop. I still have high hopes for an Inciarte to the Cubs trade for some young controllable power bats. I think Markakis still could go to a team like the White Sox or maybe the Rangers. If it gets a better prospect(s) in return, then you pay some of his salary. The Braves are under by about $10M right now and moving Markakis would add another $11M, with Markakis being owed about $33M over the next 3, so the Braves could send $12M to $15M if it gets a better return.

What I would like to see is Inciarte and Teheran to the Cubs for: Soler, Baez and Contreras
Aybar and Markakis to the WS for: RHP Carson Fulmer and OF Miker Adolfo

Start the year:

CF: Bourn/Smith
2B: Peterson/Beckham
SS: Baez
1B: Freeman
RF: Soler
3B: Johnson/Garcia
LF: Olivera/Swisher
C: Flowers/AJ

Rotation: Norris, Chacin, Kendrick, Wisler, Banuelos
Pen: Viz, Grilli, Johnson, Winkler, McKirahan, Marksberry, Krol

Is that a great team? No. Is it more than 5 games worse than what is currently there going into the season? IMO NO. And in 2017 and beyond, you have a number of new pieces and more payroll flexibility. The only real downside could potentially be that Teheran turns into the pitcher he was 2-3 years ago as opposed to the pitcher he was last year. But, even that downside isn't that concerning since the team just spent the past 18 months stockpiling arms so they could use some of them to trade to fill needs.
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I like the idea. If I'm trading Tehran and Inciarte I want more than that from the cubs....which is why that deal doesn't get done. I want to keep Tehran.

I still think there is a decent chance that at some point this year the Cubs will be looking at Inciarte as the missing piece to the WS. So I'd want to try and get Contreras +. Baez is blocked most places so maybe they can overpay with him. They have other OFs that are close but blocked too. I'm not sure I want Soler

If we move Tehran I want someone who we feel really confident is a player and has a track record. Soler has too many question marks IMO. I know Tehran wasn't great last year but his contract and his pedigree and his past performance suggest he's worth more to me.

I guess I'm saying that I don't think we get a repeat of miller for swanson, blair and inciarte. But if the cubs want to use us to break the streak then they need to pay swanson plus one of blair/inciarte. And Yes that is a big overpay, but an overpay I'd want the braves to do if we were a player from a chance at multiple playoffs/WS and we were dealing from an area of strength.
 
zitothebrave said:
Problem is we'd need someone willing to take Markakis and all his salary. I have a feeling if someoen was willing to do that, we would have unloaded him given the glut of OF players we have (Inciarte, Olivera, Markakis, Bourn, Swisher, Mallex, Cunningham, and guys who're utility capable of playing OF spots like KJ and Bonifacio) To me if anyone was taking Marakakis and all his salary and offering us any kind of return and we said no, we deserve a mental checkup. Same thing with Bourn and Swisher, no one is taking them off our hands, if anyone would have taken them and half their salary they'd be gone.

Only shot we have of getting rid of Markakis is a team loses a LF or RF in ST and needs a long term replacement and has a lot of cash to burn. I'm thinking of a Dodgers type of team. Maybe the Royals or Orioles will get desperate and take him, but from what I've read, the price for him is too high. So we can only hope one of them gets desperate.

My concern with Francoeur is the team falls to old allegiances. And we're carrying a ton of OFers. Like my number 1 fear is that our OF is Markakis, Inciarte, and Olivera, and our bench is Francoeur, Bourn, Swisher, KJ and Flowers with us just praying that we don't lose 2 IFs in the same game.
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You mean the Cunningham that plays for the Angels now?

I get that many feel they'd much prefer to unload Markakis, but one thing I think they ignore as well is the fact that you CAN'T put yourself in a position where Bourn and Swisher get substantial playing time under any circumstances. Swisher's option vests with 550 PAs, just as Bourn's does. That's $26 million you're gambling with alone. Markakis will provide more value over 2017-2018 than the two of them will in 2017 even if he's reduced to being an expensive pinch-hitter. You simply can't trade him "at all cost".

Will the brass allow Swisher and Bourn to reach that number of PAs? Not if they have any choice whatsoever. However, you can't back yourself into that kind of corner. If you trade Markakis for pennies on the dollar, you're down to Inciarte, Bourn, Swisher, and Olivera if Mallex isn't ready. All it would take at that point would be for Freddie to miss significant time and you're looking at Inciarte in RF everyday and Bourn and Swisher in the lineup a LOT more than you ever envisioned.
 
clvclv said:
You mean the Cunningham that plays for the Angels now?

I get that many feel they'd much prefer to unload Markakis, but one thing I think they ignore as well is the fact that you CAN'T put yourself in a position where Bourn and Swisher get substantial playing time under any circumstances. Swisher's option vests with 550 PAs, just as Bourn's does. That's $26 million you're gambling with alone. Markakis will provide more value over 2017-2018 than the two of them will in 2017 even if he's reduced to being an expensive pinch-hitter. You simply can't trade him "at all cost".

Will the brass allow Swisher and Bourn to reach that number of PAs? Not if they have any choice whatsoever. However, you can't back yourself into that kind of corner. If you trade Markakis for pennies on the dollar, you're down to Inciarte, Bourn, Swisher, and Olivera if Mallex isn't ready. All it would take at that point would be for Freddie to miss significant time and you're looking at Inciarte in RF everyday and Bourn and Swisher in the lineup a LOT more than you ever envisioned.
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Their general health alone would preclude them from getting 550 PA. Beyond that, you have Bourn split time with Smith (gotta see if he is gold or fools gold) and you have Swisher (his knees make it MUCH more unlikely that he can walk to the plate 550 times)split time in RF and 1B.

Everyone seems to want to forget Bourn and Swisher, just ignore them, maybe push them over to the gold couch with Jugdish, Sidney and Clayton (Animal House ref). But, the Braves are paying them a lot of money. sure, they have no trade value now. But, you can't develop trade value by sitting them or releasing them. Let's say Bourn hits .280 with a .340 OBP, plays decent defense and steals a few bases in the first half. Let's say Swisher hits .250 with an OPS of .800 with 10hr in the first half. Then both those guys would have Uribe/K Johnson type value at the deadline, especially if the Braves eat some money (which they are on the hook for anyway). But, you can't develop that market if they don't play.

Now, if this team was going to contend, then you can't afford to play those guys. But it ISN'T.
 
Russ2dollas said:
I like the idea. If I'm trading Tehran and Inciarte I want more than that from the cubs....which is why that deal doesn't get done. I want to keep Tehran.

I still think there is a decent chance that at some point this year the Cubs will be looking at Inciarte as the missing piece to the WS. So I'd want to try and get Contreras +. Baez is blocked most places so maybe they can overpay with him. They have other OFs that are close but blocked too. I'm not sure I want Soler

If we move Tehran I want someone who we feel really confident is a player and has a track record. Soler has too many question marks IMO. I know Tehran wasn't great last year but his contract and his pedigree and his past performance suggest he's worth more to me.

I guess I'm saying that I don't think we get a repeat of miller for swanson, blair and inciarte. But if the cubs want to use us to break the streak then they need to pay swanson plus one of blair/inciarte. And Yes that is a big overpay, but an overpay I'd want the braves to do if we were a player from a chance at multiple playoffs/WS and we were dealing from an area of strength.
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I am all for getting more. But, I don't want to see the Braves hold on to them for some hypothetical Swanson type return and end up stuck not making a move and having to say that "we never wanted to move them anyway. We needed to be blown away and we weren't. We're happy that we have them here." That's a missed opportunity to get better at multiple need positions IMO.

I think Soler and Baez started coming on last year and would be happy with a package to get them. Are they slam dunk guys? No. So, you take a bit of a gamble. But both have at least played at the ML level and I think neither is anywhere near as big of a gamble as Olivera.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
I am all for getting more. But, I don't want to see the Braves hold on to them for some hypothetical Swanson type return and end up stuck not making a move and having to say that "we never wanted to move them anyway. We needed to be blown away and we weren't. We're happy that we have them here." That's a missed opportunity to get better at multiple need positions IMO.

I think Soler and Baez started coming on last year and would be happy with a package to get them. Are they slam dunk guys? No. So, you take a bit of a gamble. But both have at least played at the ML level and I think neither is anywhere near as big of a gamble as Olivera.
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but we don't have to trade our guys. We can hold onto Inciarte and Tehran to 2020.
 
Russ2dollas said:
but we don't have to trade our guys. We can hold onto Inciarte and Tehran to 2020.
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Sure you can. BUT, Inciarte is essentially a light hitting defensive OF who gets on base. From a defensive approach, that is essentially M Smith. So, if you keep Inciarte then Smith is useless for the team and not likely to be very tradable since he will be blocked from the ML by Inciarte. From an offensive standpoint, Inciarte is similar to Smith, Peterson, Albies, and maybe Swanson. Bottom line for me is that his skill set is replaceable from within while what the Braves really need, production bats with power, are few and far between (I know people point to Riley, but he's had 1/2 a season at rookie ball for God's sake).

Teheran is similar in that his skill set is replaceable from within.

And, while don't advocate any kind of "salary dump" "fire sale" or "tanking" I do think that you use your assets in the best way. And, Inciarte and Teheran are both valuable commodities.
 
Camp hasn't even broke and it looks like Inciate is already candidate for this year's designated whipping boy.
 
clvclv said:
You mean the Cunningham that plays for the Angels now?

I get that many feel they'd much prefer to unload Markakis, but one thing I think they ignore as well is the fact that you CAN'T put yourself in a position where Bourn and Swisher get substantial playing time under any circumstances. Swisher's option vests with 550 PAs, just as Bourn's does. That's $26 million you're gambling with alone. Markakis will provide more value over 2017-2018 than the two of them will in 2017 even if he's reduced to being an expensive pinch-hitter. You simply can't trade him "at all cost".

Will the brass allow Swisher and Bourn to reach that number of PAs? Not if they have any choice whatsoever. However, you can't back yourself into that kind of corner. If you trade Markakis for pennies on the dollar, you're down to Inciarte, Bourn, Swisher, and Olivera if Mallex isn't ready. All it would take at that point would be for Freddie to miss significant time and you're looking at Inciarte in RF everyday and Bourn and Swisher in the lineup a LOT more than you ever envisioned.
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Yes, my apologies, I'm just too used to listing him as depth.

Bourn and Swisher wouldn't play that much. Mallex would get more PT in my unload Markakis experiment. After you give Francoeur chance to prove himself as the RH part of a platoon with Bourn. Swisher would be used sparingly and the bigger threat for him getting PT is Freddie's health
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Sure you can. BUT, Inciarte is essentially a light hitting defensive OF who gets on base. From a defensive approach, that is essentially M Smith. So, if you keep Inciarte then Smith is useless for the team and not likely to be very tradable since he will be blocked from the ML by Inciarte. From an offensive standpoint, Inciarte is similar to Smith, Peterson, Albies, and maybe Swanson. Bottom line for me is that his skill set is replaceable from within while what the Braves really need, production bats with power, are few and far between (I know people point to Riley, but he's had 1/2 a season at rookie ball for God's sake).

Teheran is similar in that his skill set is replaceable from within.

And, while don't advocate any kind of "salary dump" "fire sale" or "tanking" I do think that you use your assets in the best way. And, Inciarte and Teheran are both valuable commodities.
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Well, we don't know that Mallex Smith can replicate Inciarte's ability. So trading him off could hurt us long term (I think he's got 4-5 years of team control) We better be sure that we're getting quality return for him.

Braves would be dumb to trade Julio unless a team values him at nearly his value before last season. Never trade someone when they're at their lowest value. It's GM 101.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Sure you can. BUT, Inciarte is essentially a light hitting defensive OF who gets on base. From a defensive approach, that is essentially M Smith. So, if you keep Inciarte then Smith is useless for the team and not likely to be very tradable since he will be blocked from the ML by Inciarte. From an offensive standpoint, Inciarte is similar to Smith, Peterson, Albies, and maybe Swanson. Bottom line for me is that his skill set is replaceable from within while what the Braves really need, production bats with power, are few and far between (I know people point to Riley, but he's had 1/2 a season at rookie ball for God's sake).

Teheran is similar in that his skill set is replaceable from within.

And, while don't advocate any kind of "salary dump" "fire sale" or "tanking" I do think that you use your assets in the best way. And, Inciarte and Teheran are both valuable commodities.
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Inciarte put up a 100 wrc+ in MLB. Mallex put up a 106 wrc+ in AAA.

Inciarte saved a ton of runs in MLB. Mallex still has concerns about his route running in AAA.

Inciarte has a cannon for an arm. Mallex has an arm that is avg at best.

Of course we could lose a ton going from Inciarte to Mallex. Yes it's a SSS for both. Yes Inciarte could do much worse. Maybe going out of Zona is bad for him. And I'm not saying inciarte is a piece you build around. But it seems like industry consensus is that Inciarte is a legit MLB CF and that Mallex is a 4th OF with a Juan Pierre type ceiling. So if I'm planning on moving 4-5 years of Inciarte for 5-6 years of Mallex then I need significant upgrades at 3B and C over what we got.
 
Other reasons for at least keeping Swisher around...

joanna-garcia-521832l.jpg


joanna-garcia.jpg


[video=youtube;L5W_VBNO81A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5W_VBNO81A[/video]
 
Russ2dollas said:
Inciarte put up a 100 wrc+ in MLB. Mallex put up a 106 wrc+ in AAA.

Inciarte saved a ton of runs in MLB. Mallex still has concerns about his route running in AAA.

Inciarte has a cannon for an arm. Mallex has an arm that is avg at best.

Of course we could lose a ton going from Inciarte to Mallex. Yes it's a SSS for both. Yes Inciarte could do much worse. Maybe going out of Zona is bad for him. And I'm not saying inciarte is a piece you build around. But it seems like industry consensus is that Inciarte is a legit MLB CF and that Mallex is a 4th OF with a Juan Pierre type ceiling. So if I'm planning on moving 4-5 years of Inciarte for 5-6 years of Mallex then I need significant upgrades at 3B and C over what we got.
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I am hopeful Mallex exceeds expectations, but I can't argue with the above logic. Inciarte might exceed expectations as well. It wouldn't surprise me at all if his splits improve, as far as hitting lefties. I am a little concerned about a fall off away from Zona's home field, but it's not like he has Coors power numbers to worry about falling off.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Sure you can. BUT, Inciarte is essentially a light hitting defensive OF who gets on base. From a defensive approach, that is essentially M Smith. So, if you keep Inciarte then Smith is useless for the team and not likely to be very tradable since he will be blocked from the ML by Inciarte. From an offensive standpoint, Inciarte is similar to Smith, Peterson, Albies, and maybe Swanson. Bottom line for me is that his skill set is replaceable from within while what the Braves really need, production bats with power, are few and far between (I know people point to Riley, but he's had 1/2 a season at rookie ball for God's sake).

Teheran is similar in that his skill set is replaceable from within.

And, while don't advocate any kind of "salary dump" "fire sale" or "tanking" I do think that you use your assets in the best way. And, Inciarte and Teheran are both valuable commodities.
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How about we actually SEE some of these guys throw a pitch to a major league hitter before deciding Teheran's "replaceable from within"? Especially if you're going to trade him in a package that nets you two guys with 30% strikeout rates.

I want no part of Soler, and really don't want any part of Baez either. If you want a 3B, trade Julio for McMahon. If you want multiple pieces, add an arm and go get McMahon and David Dahl.

Julio is signed to one of the 5 best contracts in the game. If you trade him, you better get something better than Soler and Baez.
 
clvclv said:
How about we actually SEE some of these guys throw a pitch to a major league hitter before deciding Teheran's "replaceable from within"? Especially if you're going to trade him in a package that nets you two guys with 30% strikeout rates.

I want no part of Soler, and really don't want any part of Baez either. If you want a 3B, trade Julio for McMahon. If you want multiple pieces, add an arm and go get McMahon and David Dahl.

Julio is signed to one of the 5 best contracts in the game. If you trade him, you better get something better than Soler and Baez.
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Julio is replaceable from within or else the whole front office should be fired. When they spend 18 months collecting pitching, largely through the trade of ML talent, they better be right on at least SOME of it. It's not like Julio is currently Pedro Martinez or Roger Clemens or Curt Schilling. He's a solid #2. Is he on a good contract? Sure. But it's not Jose Abreu good, Chris Sale good, Michael Brantley good, Corey Kluber good, Carlos Carrasco good, just the first five I came across in the AL Central. But that's not the point. Julio has trade value. If you can get something good enough for him now, I think you have to look hard at it because there is at least as much likelihood that he will regress or get hurt as it is that he will go on to improve his stock significantly.

As for you proposed Colorado trades, OK I'm in. But, I don't think Colorado will be because they have clearly signaled that they have no real intent on competing this year. I think if a trade could have been made with Colorado, it would have been earlier in the offseason where they could gear to filling other holes in effort to compete. However, the Cubs are OBVIOUSLY in and they have an outfield need since it makes no sense to take a RF who has a significant part of his value tied up in his superb RF defense and make him a mediocre CF.

As for concern over the K rates of Baez and Soler, sure it's a concern. But they are power guys who typically are going to K more. If you look at McMahon he K'd more than 30% of the time at A and AA ball and Dahl K'd 25% of the time and hasn't shown that he is going to be a power guy.
 
Russ2dollas said:
Inciarte put up a 100 wrc+ in MLB. Mallex put up a 106 wrc+ in AAA.

Inciarte saved a ton of runs in MLB. Mallex still has concerns about his route running in AAA.

Inciarte has a cannon for an arm. Mallex has an arm that is avg at best.

Of course we could lose a ton going from Inciarte to Mallex. Yes it's a SSS for both. Yes Inciarte could do much worse. Maybe going out of Zona is bad for him. And I'm not saying inciarte is a piece you build around. But it seems like industry consensus is that Inciarte is a legit MLB CF and that Mallex is a 4th OF with a Juan Pierre type ceiling. So if I'm planning on moving 4-5 years of Inciarte for 5-6 years of Mallex then I need significant upgrades at 3B and C over what we got.
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Not saying that Mallex and Inciarte are currently equal players or ever will be. I am saying that their tools as far as the position they play and their offense are similar. Is Inciarte better defensively? Sure, his arm is better, his routes are better but Mallex probably has better speed and has youth on his side. But both are LO type guys, as are Albies and probably Swanson unless he develops a little more power. And the team isn't going to field 8 light hitting LO type guys and be successful. So, if you keep Inciarte and he hits LO, Mallex has no place on the team no matter how he develops and Swanson and Albies eventually inclusion will put a big burden on the other positions to provide power and production.
 
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