Choosing Between McCann and Justin Upton (and maybe others)

Teheran_49 said:
C'mon man don't act that was not what you were implying. I'm not saying you were directing towards me but to think Braves fans are bashing BJ and are impatient with him because he's black is just ridiculous man. Everybody gave Uggla a pass because he had an unbelievable second half and everyone thought ok he was just pressing the first half because he's now on a team with a winning tradition but dude played like trash last year and has been more than horrible this year and I don't know anyone who wants him back next year.

You also point to BJ and his career numbers as a symbol for him being a good player but will you do the same for Uggla then? Uggla's career stats blow BJ's out of the water and it's not even close. In no way am I defending Uggla as you can see with me plugging La Stella like crazy but BJ's career numbers show that a season like this was almost bound to happen. Pedestrian averages and pedestrian OBP. At least with Uggla and his poor BA(not including this piss poor year) he always got on base at over a 35% clip something BJ hasn't even came close to since 2007. He's lived off that 2007 for years and people keep saying potential this potential that well he's 29 now so I think this is more of the reality with BJ than the aberration. I hope he does bounce back but I personally don't see it likely. I think next year he will be better but I doubt if he hits above .230 and has an OBP over .320.
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Read what I said again. 'In such a manner.' - I think certain criticisms have a weird way of only being directed toward non-white players. We saw it with Andruw Jones. Kenny Lofton. Jason Heyward etc etc "Doesn't hustle." (Even Justin got this one a few times this year) "Doesn't care." "Isn't trying." And such. What did we hear about Uggla? "At least he hustles." "You can tell he is trying, even if he is horrible." Schafer? "At least you can tell he wants to be out there." "Would rather have someone playing who wants to play."

Why is that?

Do I think race is an issue for most of us? No. Do I think it is for some? Absolutely.
 
Dalyn said:
Read what I said again. 'In such a manner.' - I think certain criticisms have a weird way of only being directed toward non-white players. We saw it with Andruw Jones. Kenny Lofton. Jason Heyward etc etc "Doesn't hustle." (Even Justin got this one a few times this year) "Doesn't care." "Isn't trying." And such. What did we hear about Uggla? "At least he hustles." "You can tell he is trying, even if he is horrible." Schafer? "At least you can tell he wants to be out there." "Would rather have someone playing who wants to play."

Why is that?

Do I think race is an issue for most of us? No. Do I think it is for some? Absolutely.
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^Nailed it and Teheran_49 looks silly once again.
 
Dalyn said:
He is having a fine season. One of our better offensive players. He has had about two seasons better than this one. Not sure where this is coming from.
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I don't know how you could think he's not a disappointment. His age 24 season in 2011 was top 5 MVP voting, 30+ homers, .290 avg, .900 OPS. That's the player I thought we were getting. You are actually happy having a guy who has declined since?
 
to further my point, Justin's defense has declined heavily since 2011 if you go by UZR. His defense used to be a positive and now he's well in the negative.
 
Dalyn said:
Read what I said again. 'In such a manner.' - I think certain criticisms have a weird way of only being directed toward non-white players. We saw it with Andruw Jones. Kenny Lofton. Jason Heyward etc etc "Doesn't hustle." (Even Justin got this one a few times this year) "Doesn't care." "Isn't trying." And such. What did we hear about Uggla? "At least he hustles." "You can tell he is trying, even if he is horrible." Schafer? "At least you can tell he wants to be out there." "Would rather have someone playing who wants to play."

Why is that?

Do I think race is an issue for most of us? No. Do I think it is for some? Absolutely.
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Well Kenny Lofton didn't want to be here and we got hosed on that deal. Justice and Grissom?? Wow that was bad and I think you can understand the dislike for Lofton with Braves fans. I think with Jason is everyone thought we had this guy who was going to hit .300/30/100 every year and be this perennial power house of a hitter and it just hasn't happened. The knocks against Andruw were correct as well, he had all the talent in the world yet didn't put in the work and it's a shame how his career went on track from being one of the greatest to play the game to just another All-Star player.

Honestly, I don't know if it's true or not but sometimes the way BJ is so nonchalant about the way he is playing that there have been times in the past where it looked like he wasn't giving it his all. Dan has always been a hustle player and that's how you have to play when you didn't get a chance at the Big Leagues until 26 and not looked at like a top prospect in the game(like BJ was). I just don't feel like these criticisms are being delivered based on race and more so of how it looks on the field.
 
Teheran_49 said:
Honestly, I don't know if it's true or not but sometimes the way BJ is so nonchalant about the way he is playing that there have been times in the past where it looked like he wasn't giving it his all. Dan has always been a hustle player and that's how you have to play when you didn't get a chance at the Big Leagues until 26 and not looked at like a top prospect in the game(like BJ was). I just don't feel like these criticisms are being delivered based on race and more so of how it looks on the field.
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A long time ago someone drew the comparison between Pete Rose and Hank Aaron. They made that point that Rose always looked like he was going a hundred miles per hour and got the nickname Charlie Hustle. At the same time Hank just glided around gracefully and didn't look like he was working very hard. But that was deceptive. It was just one player had a particular way of moving that made him look like he was trying much harder. I think this is why so-called "blue collar" players can attain a popularity sometime that is actually out of proportion with both their results and effort. While more graceful types of players don't get the credit they deserve. I suppose some of it is in the eye of the beholder. Graceful in one person's eye becomes nonchalance in another.
 
Dalyn said:
Being competitive doesn't usually work that way. Can't help but feel like people wouldn't question BJ in such a manner (or display such a lack of patience) if not for a few defining features. Not necessarily you, PPMax, but just in general.
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:fredi:
 
I think there's a kind of "benevolent" racism which assumes that a guy like Andruw or Jason (and this year, Justin Upton) has this bottomless wellspring of talent which he can choose to tap at will. Then, if they fail to live up to (often unrealistic) expectations, they get judged more harshly, because of some perceived lack of desire to realize their talent. I'm not saying that any particular person is a big ol' racist, but over the years, I think that standard has been applied more often and more vocally to non-white players.
 
Julio3000 said:
I think there's a kind of "benevolent" racism which assumes that a guy like Andruw or Jason (and this year, Justin Upton) has this bottomless wellspring of talent which he can choose to tap at will. Then, if they fail to live up to (often unrealistic) expectations, they get judged more harshly, because of some perceived lack of desire to realize their talent. I'm not saying that any particular person is a big ol' racist, but over the years, I think that standard has been applied more often and more vocally to non-white players.
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Cough Franceour Cough
 
Teheran_49 said:
Cough Franceour Cough
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I don't think anyone ever accused Francoeur of not loving baseball or not hustling or not caring. He was criticized more along the lines that Uggla is being criticized for. For being stubborn. For not making adjustments in his approach.
 
nsacpi said:
I don't think anyone ever accused Francoeur of not loving baseball or not hustling or not caring. He was criticized more along the lines that Uggla is being criticized for. For being stubborn. For not making adjustments in his approach.
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Not to mention Francoeur was completely overrated as a prospect. Because of his super hot MLB start, he was put on a pedestal that was never realistic. Dude was a career .808 OPS in the minors... now he's a career .725 OPS in the majors. That's a pretty normal regression gap from the minors to the majors. Frenchy only really had 3 good years as a professional Brave... Danville (R), Myrtle Beach (A+), and his first year in the bigs (only 257 at-bats and cooled down greatly after his hot start). He was just always overrated and really never projected to be a star... the fact that he was number 14 overall prospect in MLB at one point is laughable considering his numbers.
 
Teheran_49 said:
Cough Franceour Cough
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Francoeur tends to support my point. A vocal minority of posters thought he had a giant, glaring flaw when he came up . . . a hole in his game, not his character. They harped on it at the time, and continued to do so for the next couple of years. When he failed to progress, he might've been knocked—fairly or not—for his stubbornness, but not for his desire to improve, his love of the game, or his (to borrow a favorite tag of the day) "makeup."
 
Julio3000 said:
Francoeur tends to support my point. A vocal minority of posters thought he had a giant, glaring flaw when he came up . . . a hole in his game, not his character. They harped on it at the time, and continued to do so for the next couple of years. When he failed to progress, he might've been knocked—fairly or not—for his stubbornness, but not for his desire to improve, his love of the game, or his (to borrow a favorite tag of the day) "makeup."
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Let's just get back to the facts. The fact is BJ's past numbers show that a season like this was inevitable. This deal looks worse than the Lowe deal,IMO and he has never been that good of a hitter. I don't blame BJ as much as I blame wren for giving someone with poor production a contract of this magnitude. When it comes to giving big money to free-agents he just needs to let someone else handle the decisions as he has done terrible. He can find relievers off the scrap heap and more times than not they seem to do pretty well but he is just flat out terrible as it seems he just throws these big money contracts out to marginal players.
 
Like most fans, my biggest concern about BJ is that, statisically speaking, he is the worst free agent signing of all time.
 
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