College

[thethe]

That doesn't exist in college. Unless you're going to school to learn a specialized knowledge (Medicine, Law, etc.) there's no need. I would personally adopt the german method of colleges and vocational schools.

I think career education needs to happen at the younger levels. Teenagers need to understand what type of jobs are out there. The thought process about what you want to do with your life after you stop mooching off your parents needs to happen at a younger age.

I'm all for vocational schooling. The fact that this type of education has all but been removed is a joke. No child left behind act FTW!

 

[Metaphysicist]

I think expecting teenagers to make rational financial decisions is asking for a lot.

 

[thethe]

I think expecting teenagers to make rational financial decisions is asking for a lot.

I don't expect them to make the decision. Just getting more information/education at an earlier age will lead to a better decision in the future IMO.

 

[57Brave]

I'm all for vocational schooling. The fact that this type of education has all but been removed is a joke. !

We are eliminating trade unions and we don't have public school funds,

It's nice to say we should have vocational training -- but ...

It would also be nice if people that enter trades are guaranteed a living wage and rights.

Why would anyone want to enter the trades today? First off you have very little protection, zilch job security and wages are not keeping with inflation.

As fast as as write this, some (R) State Legislature is outlawing unions

Would that be the joke ?

It has to be made more accessible and more secure.

Look at the welders that work the rust Belt. Why would their kids want to live a life of poverty to do hard, dirty unsexy physical work

In that light, and by the definitions layed out above, 21st century vocational training is useless / dead end

 

[thethe]

What are you talking about? Working with your hands pays very well.

Construction
Plumbers
Electricians
etc....

These are all trades that can be taught without traditional colleg.e

 

[Tapate50]

What are you talking about? Working with your hands pays very well.

Construction

Plumbers

Electricians

etc....

These are all trades that can be taught without traditional colleg.e

The local pool company charges more per hour than a pharmacist makes. It isn't really even close either.

 

[thethe]

The local pool company charges more per hour than a pharmacist makes. It isn't really even close either.

I just can't believe that someone actually just said that people in the trades don't make that much.

Job security? Who has job security? Why are you entitled to job security? You get your job security by performing well. Its on you not on someone else to guarantee you your job. Incredible.

 

[zitothebrave]

Depends on what trade you work. Some absolutely pay more than others. But none pay amazing.

Also I personally don't know too many electricians (maybe you do living in NYC) who didn't go to school for electrical engineering or something similar.

 

[57Brave]

I just can't believe that someone actually just said that people in the trades don't make that much.

Job security? Who has job security? Why are you entitled to job security? You get your job security by performing well. Its on you not on someone else to guarantee you your job. Incredible.

This entire post is narrow and conveniently forgetful in the wake of the 2008 financial collapse and the (diminishing) wage vs inflation numbers.

Tell the swaths of unemployed Rust Belt citizens how their performance dictates their job security.

 

[thethe]

This entire post is narrow and conveniently forgetful in the wake of the 2008 financial collapse and the (diminishing) wage vs inflation numbers.

Tell the swaths of unemployed Rust Belt citizens how their performance dictates their job security.

Everybody gets hurt when there is a financial collapse. You need to position yourself better to absorb something like that. Expecting someone to baby you when times get rough is a joke IMO.

 

[thethe]

Depends on what trade you work. Some absolutely pay more than others. But none pay amazing.

Also I personally don't know too many electricians (maybe you do living in NYC) who didn't go to school for electrical engineering or something similar.

I don't believe its a requirement to go to college to get your license and start your own business though. That is mostly what I am saying. You could learn the essential aspects of being an electrician from a vocational school.

 

[zitothebrave]

I don't believe its a requirement to go to college to get your license and start your own business though. That is mostly what I am saying. You could learn the essential aspects of being an electrician from a vocational school.

Perhaps but you wouldn't know the why, which is kind of important when dealing with something that powers everyone's lives. 20+ years ago I could buy someone just starting an electrical company. These days I'm a little more skeptical. As a society we're so plugged in that we'll pay the premium to get the job done right.

 

[thethe]

Perhaps but you wouldn't know the why, which is kind of important when dealing with something that powers everyone's lives. 20+ years ago I could buy someone just starting an electrical company. These days I'm a little more skeptical. As a society we're so plugged in that we'll pay the premium to get the job done right.

You dont' start a business overnight. You apprentice under someone for many years. Be that 2 or 5 or 10. Then you go out on your own. But, to be on your own you have to be able to sell your service and that is a rare skill to have but if you have it then your golden. By best friend growing up hated school and didn't even get his regeants diploma but that guy can hustle with the best of them. Now he has his own stucco/stone company and is doing much better than I am doing while I was the high achiever in school and have a CPA.

 

[BedellBrave]

Random thoughts:

We need to move away from this idea that everyone needs a college education.

We need many of the existing colleges/universities to fail.

We need more vocational schools.

Revamping our pre-college structure, with nods to other national models, ain't a bad idea.

"Useless" degrees aren't of necessity bad - it just the whining of those who get them and then can't get jobs or who have problems paying off their debt that's annoying.

I for one highly value classical education, the Great Books approach, and fine liberal arts. Such methodologies can produce great thinkers.

Parents, guidance counselors, excellent teachers and successful business people have a role in helping kids narrow educational options - now if they'd just do a better job with the guidance.

Part of the problem is the loss of great swathes of manufacturing jobs so folks think they've got to get the college education to get a decent job. The potential "education bubble" isn't disconnected with other national problems. In the job market we've basically lost the middle.

 

[AerchAngel]

I think career education needs to happen at the younger levels. Teenagers need to understand what type of jobs are out there. The thought process about what you want to do with your life after you stop mooching off your parents needs to happen at a younger age.

I'm all for vocational schooling. The fact that this type of education has all but been removed is a joke. No child left behind act FTW!

European school system is like that. My daughter was going the History/Anthropology route, but her mother and I told her there is no future there if you want to make a lot of money and she changed her direction to be a dentist, so her classes was tailored to that discipline. You can do this in private school, but I also think the German public schools do the same to a certain extent.

 

[57Brave]

Random thoughts:

We need to move away from this idea that everyone needs a college education.

We need many of the existing colleges/universities to fail.

We need more vocational schools.

Revamping our pre-college structure, with nods to other national models, ain't a bad idea.

"Useless" degrees aren't of necessity bad - it just the whining of those who get them and then can't get jobs or who have problems paying off their debt that's annoying.

I for one highly value classical education, the Great Books approach, and fine liberal arts. Such methodologies can produce great thinkers.

Parents, guidance counselors, excellent teachers and successful business people have a role in helping kids narrow educational options - now if they'd just do a better job with the guidance.

Part of the problem is the loss of great swathes of manufacturing jobs so folks think they've got to get the college education to get a decent job. The potential "education bubble" isn't disconnected with other national problems. In the job market we've basically lost the middle.

I agree on all points.
But, would like to know about this "whining". Isn't sort of an overplayed notion that gives breathing room to the do-nothing vs the social science school of thought? Because in fact I see more written about the "whiners" than I do from the "whiners"

Is this a code word ? Straight up question

 

[57Brave]

Everybody gets hurt when there is a financial collapse. You need to position yourself better to absorb something like that. Expecting someone to baby you when times get rough is a joke IMO.

Of course everyone gets "hurt". But, not everyone gets devestated.

How was one supposed to position themselves with a high school degree and 20 years experience as say, a pipe fitter. With a mortgage,car payments and 2 kids getting ready to go to college? Not a lot of wiggle room therein the best of circumstances.
Then to expect those same two kids have to decide whether to be a pipe fitter or not !!!

Where do you stand on the Free Trade Agreements of the 1990's? And, what affects has that had on this discussion?

 

[weso1]

One thing that might help is to cut some of the fat in college education. I know I've said this before but it bears repeating. Too many pointless classes that are outside your degree. Colleges should be more like vocational schools. In that you take mostly just the necessary classes.

I don't need art, music, PE, philosophy, etc. in college. All of that stuff should be learned in high school where it's publicly funded.

 

[57Brave]

One thing that might help is to cut some of the fat in college education. I know I've said this before but it bears repeating. Too many pointless classes that are outside your degree. Colleges should be more like vocational schools. In that you take mostly just the necessary classes.

I don't need art, music, PE, philosophy, etc. in college. All of that stuff should be learned in high school where it's publicly funded.

"trivia" right?

 

[BedellBrave]

I agree on all points.
But, would like to know about this "whining". Isn't sort of an overplayed notion that gives breathing room to the do-nothing vs the social science school of thought? Because in fact I see more written about the "whiners" than I do from the "whiners"

Is this a code word ? Straight up question

No code word.