Confederate Monuments

seems Japan has a monument problem as well

Among the 2.4 million souls enshrined and revered in the Yasukuni Shrine are about 1,000 war criminals from World War II. These were men who were convicted and executed by Allied war tribunals, or who died in jail. This is one of the main problems for Japan's neighbors; that reverence is being paid to those who committed some of history's most egregious crimes. The shrine wasn't an issue before they were inducted en masse in a secret ceremony in 1978, after a special new category of eligibility was created for the 'victims' of the international war crimes tribunals.
 
BedellBrave said:
From an African-American friend:

'Negroes were supposed to write about the Race Problem. I was and am thoroughly sick of the subject. My interest lies in what makes a man or a woman do such-and-so, regardless of his color. It seemed to me that the human beings I met reacted pretty much the same to the same stimuli. Different idioms, yes, inherent difference, no.' ~Zora Neale Hurston

#Racefatigue
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That's all well and good, but everyone make sure to read Hurston, too.

And read DuBois on Reconstruction and Jim Crow. Probably more on the mark than any other contemporary observer.

I recommended it upthread, but David Blight's Race and Reunion really puts the Lost Cause mythmaking in perspective. It's not polemic, just appropriate context.
 
Jaw said:
Whereas Grant and Sherman had no compunctions about laying waste to farms and doing harm to civilians standing in their way, Lee did. "It is well that war is so terrible," he said, "lest we grow too fond of it." As his armies advanced northward and captured farms, he instructed his soldiers that whatever food they took from the farmers, they pay for it. He, not grant, won the moral advantage recognized by history.

Seymour Morris Jr., American History Revised: 200 Startling Facts That Never Made It into the Textbooks (2010), p. 161
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Sherman and the Union generals who waged "total war" against Southern infrastructure and farms did so because it was the most expeditions way to end the war...which was started by--oh, right. Yankee aggression.

So. In the interest of history and not hagiography, Lee did have free blacks seized under arms and transported back south, to slavery. Let's stop short of sainthood, shall we?
 
Jaw said:
Whereas Grant and Sherman had no compunctions about laying waste to farms and doing harm to civilians standing in their way, Lee did. "It is well that war is so terrible," he said, "lest we grow too fond of it." As his armies advanced northward and captured farms, he instructed his soldiers that whatever food they took from the farmers, they pay for it. He, not grant, won the moral advantage recognized by history.

Seymour Morris Jr., American History Revised: 200 Startling Facts That Never Made It into the Textbooks (2010), p. 161
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http://www.post-gazette.com/news/st...orth-a-military-disgrace/stories/201306300221
 
Julio3000 said:
Sherman and the Union generals who waged "total war" against Southern infrastructure and farms did so because it was the most expeditions way to end the war...which was started by--oh, right. Yankee aggression.

So. In the interest of history and not hagiography, Lee did have free blacks seized under arms and transported back south, to slavery. Let's stop short of sainthood, shall we?
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Hmmm. Maybe Lee thought that was his best chance at winning the war? Certainly I would consider the actions of both to be immoral war crimes.
 
Jaw said:
Hmmm. Maybe Lee thought that was his best chance at winning the war? Certainly I would consider the actions of both to be immoral war crimes.
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OK, but doesn't saying so undercut the entire premise of the passage you quoted, which was that Lee's conduct was morally superior?
 
Julio3000 said:
OK, but doesn't saying so undercut the entire premise of the passage you quoted, which was that Lee's conduct was morally superior?
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this wins so much.

Lee wasn't a saint, but he gets made out to be thanks to the great propaganda of Confederate revisionists. Lee says lots of things but then did different things.

The reason for Sherman's march to the sea and total war is heinous in a way, it was to instill the fear and hardship of war on the relatively unscathed Georgian people. The early stages of the war were fought mainly in Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri, Mississippi, and other sites that were on the border or a seafaring route. The hardships of war the fear of war didn't really grip the ones in the south who seceded first (aside from Mississippi) Lee was doing the same thing in his northern campaign march. His goal was to demoralize the north.

When Sherman did his march to the sea, the Confederate soldiers in advance of him did countless amounts of damage as well in an attempt to slow down the war effort of Sherman. Were they villains?

The idea that the south were gentlemen fighting the harsh brutal north is the most heinous example of whitewashing. It would be like the Russians justifying the insane things they did in WWII and for decades after because of Operation Barbarossa.
 
zitothebrave said:
Did you if you intend to disagree with me posting it there?
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Lee told his soldiers, once the invasion of Pennsylvania was under way, that "no greater disgrace could befall the army," or discredit the Confederate cause, "than the perpetuation of the barbarous outrages upon the unarmed and defenceless [sic] and the wanton destruction of private property that have marked the course of the enemy in our own country."
 
Broadcaster Robert Lee removed from the Virginia Cavaliers broadcast because his name is Robert Lee. ESPN Y'all.
 
zitothebrave said:
The idea that the south were gentlemen fighting the harsh brutal north is the most heinous example of whitewashing.
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Interesting. I would say the below statement is at least as accurate.

The idea that Sherman and Lincoln were gentlemen fighting the racist slaving south is the most heinous example of whitewashing.

I would also say that whitewashing is much easier for the winning side, since it typically controls the history class curriculum. At some point we need to judge these people based on how their contemporaries judged them. Very few men would have been able to accomplish anything of note while also jumping through all of the modern day morality/inclusivity/identity/pc/safe space hoops.
 
Hawk said:
Lee told his soldiers, once the invasion of Pennsylvania was under way, that "no greater disgrace could befall the army," or discredit the Confederate cause, "than the perpetuation of the barbarous outrages upon the unarmed and defenceless [sic] and the wanton destruction of private property that have marked the course of the enemy in our own country."
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Color that quote and decision with the fact that Lee knew The South both could not win a prolonged war and was morally in the wrong.
 
Runnin said:
Color that quote and decision with the fact that Lee knew The South both could not win a prolonged war and was morally in the wrong.
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Lee knew The South both could not win a prolonged war
I don't believe that being the winner or loser justifies war crimes. Do you?

Lee knew The South both could not win a prolonged war and was morally in the wrong
I know that the US is morally in the wrong on many of its policies: drone bombing, interdiction, capital punishment, abortion. Does that mean I should make a half-hearted effort at defending the US if I am ever called on to bear arms in defense of my country?
 
Hawk said:
Lee told his soldiers, once the invasion of Pennsylvania was under way, that "no greater disgrace could befall the army," or discredit the Confederate cause, "than the perpetuation of the barbarous outrages upon the unarmed and defenceless [sic] and the wanton destruction of private property that have marked the course of the enemy in our own country."
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Well, they certainly took pains to preserve one kind of private property.

So we are reading an article about rounding up free blacks and sending them into slavery and this is our takeaway?
 
Julio3000 said:
Well, they certainly took pains to preserve one kind of private property.

So we are reading an article about rounding up free blacks and sending them into slavery and this is our takeaway?
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I don't know what you are talking about, I'm just hagiographing Robert E. Lee.
 
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