Debate of the Week, who is on your HOF Ballot

In no particular order here's how I would vote.

Greg Maddux

Tom Glavine

Curt Schilling

Mike Mussina

Jeff Bagwell

Craig Biggio

Frank Thomas

Barry Bonds (yes there's the whole PED's thing but Bonds was a HOF based just on what he did from 1986-1998 before he got on the juice in 1999.)

Larry Walker

Mike Piazza

Guys just missing my top 10 are Roger Clemens, Fred McGriff and Edgar Martinez.
 
nsacpi said:
One argument I don't understand is citing the admission of past players who might have cheated as justifying admitting another group that might have cheated. Ethical standards evolve, in society at large and in baseball. There was a time when this country elected slave owners as president. Times change and past standards are at best an imperfect guide.
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I think this actually loses your own argument. If we as fans/writers/players/coaches/etc didn't know back then that they were juicing then you were either majorly disillusioned or lying to yourself. We all profited off these players and praised them for their big numbers and for "saving" baseball and now we want to throw the book at them. that's wrong on so many levels. i think Arod never gets in because his cheating came after steroids were banned, but guys like Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Mark Mcqwire all never failed a test and it was never technically banned by the league until after their careers. fair or not they should get a pass because we the fans were the driving force behind these players taking these substances... now we are the driving force behind getting rid of them, but you can't apply today's standards to yesterdays players.
 
zitothebrave said:
That thanks was for alphabetizing your list. Kudos. That said Jack Morris :Sad:
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I knew I'd take some heat for Morris, but despite his high ERA he always seemed like one of the elite pitchers of the 80s. I probably would have swapped Mussina for Morris if it weren't Morris's last chance. I'm not sure why Mattingly gets so little support but Puckett sailed in on the first ballot. Some of it may be due to Kirby's career being cut short, but they both were affected by injuries. Their stats look very similar to me.
 
McCannFan said:
I knew I'd take some heat for Morris, but despite his high ERA he always seemed like one of the elite pitchers of the 80s. I probably would have swapped Mussina for Morris if it weren't Morris's last chance.
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Morris was solid. But he was well behind Ryan, Blylevin, Stieb, and Clemens. Also behind Carlton and Valenzuela.
 
https://twitter.com/ajcbraves/statuses/420400768173096960

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Minutes away from finding out. I think Maddux and Glavine are in. I also think Frank Thomas will be elected. If Craig Biggio is not elected this year, next year will be his year. I have my doubts Jack Morris is elected.
 
Am I the only one who thinks Glavine shouldn't have been 1st ballot? He's definitely Hall of Fame, but to me 1st ballot should be elite of the elite. I feel like the only reason Glavine is a first ballot HOF is because of 300 wins.
 
weso1 said:
Am I the only one who thinks Glavine shouldn't have been 1st ballot? He's definitely Hall of Fame, but to me 1st ballot should be elite of the elite. I feel like the only reason Glavine is a first ballot HOF is because of 300 wins.
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I think the idea of first ballot is dumb. He's a HOFer he should be in. You shouldn't not vote for someone because you think they should wait a year or 2. If you never voted for Jack Morris before and didn't fill out all 10 of your votes, you shouldn't have started the last few years. Only exception is if you saw some new stat that changed your opinion.
 
zitothebrave said:
I think the idea of first ballot is dumb. He's a HOFer he should be in. You shouldn't not vote for someone because you think they should wait a year or 2. If you never voted for Jack Morris before and didn't fill out all 10 of your votes, you shouldn't have started the last few years. Only exception is if you saw some new stat that changed your opinion.
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I completely agree. This a guy is a HOF but shouldn't go in on the 1st ballot stuff is just BS. Either a guy is a HOF and should be voted in or he's not. There should be no "changing your mind about a guy." Either you think he is or isn't. IMO Craig Biggio is a HOF'er and should be in.
 
I don't know if I agree that you shouldn't be able to change your mind.

I mean a lot of guys have changed their perception on pitchers because of statistics, Morris being a perfect example.

I think if people take a few years to recognize how good someone was by looking at their stats again, I think that's fine.

Biggio gets hurt because he was considered a compiler, but like jpx I agree that guys who last a long time in this game SHOULD get recognition. It shouldn't be about peak exclusively, as Pedro Martinez will be the perfect example of a peak starter without compiling huge numbers. Biggio compiled stats and was loyal he should be in. Helton will be hurt because of Coors, but the fact he was loyal to Colorado his entire career, and quietly put up very good numbers should be in consideration.
 
weso1 said:
Am I the only one who thinks Glavine shouldn't have been 1st ballot? He's definitely Hall of Fame, but to me 1st ballot should be elite of the elite. I feel like the only reason Glavine is a first ballot HOF is because of 300 wins.
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Wupk and I were talking about this the other day. Glavine does not have flashy godlike numbers, but if you remember when he pitched how remarkably good he was then you would change your mind.

Glavine's case is helped by:
300 wins (5 20 win seasons, impressive even if you don't like that stat)
Union Head for so many years.
Don't think anyone ever assumed he took PED's.
2 Cy Youngs
Responsible for Braves only WS title.
He's a left hander.

Costas remarked today how efficient Glavine and Maddux were. How they had low pitch counts to finish games in 8 innings or even CG. The amount of CG's they racked up back then would be unheard of today. Halladay and Lee are two of the pitchers that could go 8 or 9 with very low pitch counts. I think the fact managers coddle pitchers so much and go to the bullpen early, makes Maddux and Glavine's durability stand out even more. I mean when Medlen was on that insane run, we were in love with how many times he could go 7+ innings because seeing a starter make it to the 8th let alone 9th was something we haven't seen in a long time. Maddux, Glavine, and even Smoltz did that regularly not because Cox let them stay out there but because they were good enough to stay out there.

Again, Glavine doesn't have the big numbers to stand out other than wins, but he was a pitcher like Maddux. He would still have been an ace on most teams in his prime, his body of work just gets overshadowed because he pitched in the same rotation as Smoltz and Maddux. Smoltz was always looked at as the biggest power pitcher on that rotation, Maddux was the ultimate finess and control guy, while Glavine was the quiet fighter. He would walk somebody then come back and take down the next few guys. He also attacked the zone and painted the corners maybe not the same as Maddux (who does?) but he was good enough to where the umpire would give him benefit of the doubt neighborhood calls.
 
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