You "explained" it, sure, but doesn't mean what you said makes sense. Robinson and Ozzie are in purely because of their defense. Without it they are average players. With it (as in best ever at their respective positions) they are legends. Had Andruw not fallen off and had a slow normal career regression he would also be in because of his defense. As it stands there are worse players currently in the HOF which includes Andruw Dawson.
Driven: Andruw Jones
- Thread starter The Tariff King
- Start date
You "explained" it, sure, but doesn't mean what you said makes sense. Robinson and Ozzie are in purely because of their defense. Without it they are average players. With it (as in best ever at their respective positions) they are legends. Had Andruw not fallen off and had a slow normal career regression he would also be in because of his defense. As it stands there are worse players currently in the HOF which includes Andruw Dawson.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
I think it's fair to say that his poor conditioning contributed to the knee issues, but it's also worth mentioning that he played 11 straight seasons of no fewer than 153 games per, including 5 of 159 or more. Considering the way he played CF, that's a LOT of mileage on those knees.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
I've been to the Hall 3 times now. I've seen Glavine's, Maddux's and Cox's plaques.
I know the odds aren't good of Druw getting in. His best shot is to hang around on the ballot a long time and have more young writers get votes, people who grew up watching him and with stats. ust because he isn't in the HOF doesn't mean he isn't deserving. Again, at worst one of the 10 best players of the last 20 years. When you think about the best players from 1990-2010 how many can you put over Druw? Almost any given decade at some point 20 players get into the Hall, you're gonna tell me Druw isn't one of the 20 best players of his era?
Without verifying, he had something like 2,800 hits. As we all know, 3,000 was threshold. It used to be a lot bigger deal than it is now. Yeah, he was around for about 20 years.
Here it is:
Believe it, emerging during the playoffs has an enormous impact on HOF credentials. He was known for doing it. Point of reference, part of the reason BBWAA members voted Smoltz in was because of Game 7 of the '91 WS. That was just one game, but it's remembered as one of the best ever.
Before him, there was our own Eddie Matthews, and there only a few others. Obviously, guys like Schmidt, Brett and Boggs came up a few years after. It historically hadn't been a productive position. Also remember this was before heavy expansion. So, the calibre of competition was rather high during the 60's and early 70's.
I would love to hear you argue against his candidacy against people who actually saw him play. Then you can mumble something about WAR.
If Smoltz was helped remembered based on one game on 91 then Andruw should get the same immortality for his 2 world series homers.
BR had an MVP and hopefully the writers will remember Andruw was robbed of the MVP in 2005. BR is known is the greatest defensive 3B ever , so why shouldn't Andruw get in considering he's the greatest defensive centerfielder ever?
BR had longevity because he played a less physically demanding position than Andruw.
Should Omar Visquel be in the HOF? He played a long time and had almost 3000 hits? Should Bernie Williams be in the HOF? He had a much bigger offensive peak than Brooks and came up big time after time in the playoffs on great Yankees teams.
And I don't know exactly what you are trying to say at the end. Robinson is one of the best 3B ever (1 of 7 3B with over 80 WAR all of who are or will be in the HOF). I just don't think he was partially great offensively like Boggs, Schmidt, Matthews, Chipper, etc. He is not in that class of offensive ability. But defensively he was years ahead of anybody before him or since. He is in the HOF primarily because he is the best defensive 3B ever. A good comp is Adrian Beltre. Who career wise is a good offensive player who has played a long time to accumulate good counting stats with elite defensive to push him over the edge. Brooks was not an elite offensive player and nobody back then saw him as that.
Remember, I already addressed this earlier in the thread. If the Braves had won in '96, he would have been Series MVP, especially with it having been against the Yankees. Then, if he hadn't had tailed off
He'll get votes...but nowhere near 75%. If you hold onto this hope that there's this latent support for his candidacy, you're going to be very disappointed in the results.
Nobody is going to care about somebody who came up short in MVP once. That sort of things doesn't catch voter attention. Hell, Dale Murphy actually won it twice. Think that Roger Maris is the only other 2-timer not to have been inducted? (His period of excellence was MUCH more brief.)
Again, then expect the voters to evaluate his last year with the Braves, his time with the Dodgers. Going off to Japan didn't help the cause. Voters are just going to look at him, and see that he never led in any important offensive category. He didn't give voters something more than Gold Gloves. You only have a couple players in the history of the game *mostly* because of defense, but they did other things like come up big in the post season when it mattered most.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
And he wasn't overweight like Andruw is. ANdruw unfortunately was his own enemy. If he was in shape his whole career and ate like a pro-athlete should rather than like Babe Ruth, then he'd have played longer and likely been a much better player. I say likely because you don't know, maybe the added weight helped him offensively. I also don't think his swing change that led to his amazing 2005 did any favors to his knees either as it was a very violent swing.
That being said, I don't know of a world where I wouldn't want the best defensive CF in the game to not be in the Hall of Fame. Sure he never lived up to the Willie Mays hype that was put on him, but on that same note, he was basically a modern day Ozzie Smith. Relative to their eras, Andruw was about 116 runs above average offensively, Ozzie Smith was about 70 runs below average. That is including baserunning where Ozzie was obviously leagues better than Andruw. Now it's worth noting that SS is a more defensive position than CF, so Ozzie being 70 runs below average for SS is basically moved up to being about 60 runs above average with a positional adjustment. But still, offensively, Andruw is vastly superior to Ozzie SMith. Similar to Ozzie SMith he was an other-worldly defender, If you want to say Ozzie is a greater defender you could quite easily be right, but we're splitting hairs.
I can't see someone defend Ozzie Smith as a HOF selection and not pick Andruw Jones.
Amazes me that we've gotten to a point that somebody is arguing against Brooks Robinson being the HOF, but here we are. OK, so you had 30 voters, who didn't check his name on the ballot. Baseball writers are empowered to speak or write freely on these matters. Maybe some are deceased. A few might have just wanted him to wait a little longer. Maybe some were sportwriters from rival cities (NY, Boston) and he was a thorn in their side. Whatever the reasons.
He had other credentials besides Gold Gloves. He had an MVP and came up big at the plate during the post season. You can go ahead and ignore it. If all he had were Gold Gloves, didn't have an MVP and didn't rise to the occasion during the post season, he doesn't get induced.
Belte should get in, but why even mention it?
Here's the bottom line. If you're looking for a precedent. You're not going to gain support for Andruw Jones by trying to downgrade Brooks Robinson. OP (maybe was Cajun?) who mentioned that it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good. Andruw Jones will not have the support. Why does this keep getting recycled?
Can you read and understand English? Who is arguing against Brooks Robinson being in the HOF? Saying he's not in the same offensive class as Boggs, Schmidt, Matthews, Chipper, etc is not saying Brooks shouldn't be in the HOF. But I guess I have to spell it out for you so you can understand it.
Here, instead of trying to implore with me, go through and read on:
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...&ie=UTF-8#q=andruw jones hall of fame chances
Don't bother with Talking Chop, because you're never going to get an impartial impression. Then the domestic violence charge was mentioned in at least one. Yep, voters keep those things in mind. Steroid Era comes up, but nobody is implicting him specifically. In fact, one of these writers just said that he was out of shape at the end of his career. Fair assessment, as I don't think he indulged much, if at all. However, he was a teammate of Sheffield, who was close to BFF with Bonds. So, there are some, who'll connect the dots. The one I do think was a PED user was Javy Lopez. Sucks ass wind his 2nd last year with the Braves. Kills it during his contract year. Scores as a FA. Does similarly his first year with Orioles, and begins to whither on the vine.
Anyway, these articles give good analysis from every angle.
Oh, look what somebody wrote:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/h...uction-possibilities-for-the-next-five-years/
Where did we hear that before? You guys are right. I don't know what I'm talking about.
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...&ie=UTF-8#q=andruw jones hall of fame chances
Don't bother with Talking Chop, because you're never going to get an impartial impression. Then the domestic violence charge was mentioned in at least one. Yep, voters keep those things in mind. Steroid Era comes up, but nobody is implicting him specifically. In fact, one of these writers just said that he was out of shape at the end of his career. Fair assessment, as I don't think he indulged much, if at all. However, he was a teammate of Sheffield, who was close to BFF with Bonds. So, there are some, who'll connect the dots. The one I do think was a PED user was Javy Lopez. Sucks ass wind his 2nd last year with the Braves. Kills it during his contract year. Scores as a FA. Does similarly his first year with Orioles, and begins to whither on the vine.
Anyway, these articles give good analysis from every angle.
Oh, look what somebody wrote:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/h...uction-possibilities-for-the-next-five-years/
Where did we hear that before? You guys are right. I don't know what I'm talking about.
Yep. For me, this is onr of the greatest defensive plays I've ever seen. The amount of ground he had to cover in such a short time is phenomenal.
No, it's my second language. Swahili is my native tongue.
off the bat it's a sure triple. like no way anybody is going to cover that ground....except andruw
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
The problem with calling only Ozzie and Mazeroski defensive inclusions is it's a lie.
If defense wasn't the main reason for Brooks Robinson getting in, why isn't Darrell Evans in?
On another note, in a Hall of Fame where Ron Santo is in, Scott Rolen better be in. He's equivalent offensively and far superior defensively. I know Santo was a veteran committee selection. But still he's in the Hall.
If defense wasn't the main reason for Brooks Robinson getting in, why isn't Darrell Evans in?
On another note, in a Hall of Fame where Ron Santo is in, Scott Rolen better be in. He's equivalent offensively and far superior defensively. I know Santo was a veteran committee selection. But still he's in the Hall.
goldfly
<B>if my thought dreams could be seen</B>
let's not act like Pujols didn't have a MVP type year
War: 8.4 Games played: 161 AB: 591 R:12 H:195 HR:41 RBI:117 SB:16 BB:97 .330/.430/.609/1.039
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Pujols was fantastic, but Druw was the more important player. Don't get me wrong, Pujols wasn't full on undeserving, but remove Pujols from the Cards they still win the division and are the top seed in the NL, remove Druw from the Braves and the Braves are fighting for 4th in the division.
The writers suck, they used the logic as I said above to give Ryan Howard the MVP in 2006 (even if Utley was the best Philly, I digress just using the logic) when Pujols was the better hitter and the better fielder.
Nobody said that. They are the two who are in mostly for defensive abilities. Like everybody else, they had post-season heroics.
Ozzie also had this:
[video=youtube;L4PB0XoLbm8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4PB0XoLbm8[/video]
Mazerski had this:
[video=youtube;FE1nYMg-jU4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE1nYMg-jU4[/video]
These were guys, who did NOT make their names with their bats, but enhanced their reputations by doing it with the bat when it mattered most. Also, to be fair to Ozzie, he became a better hitter as his career progressed.
Well, Ralph Kiner is, so you can set the voters straight.
Johnny Bench, somebody who's is listened to, had been mentioning Ron Santo for years. You, of all people, should know better than to try and compare players from different eras. Not sure what Rolen's level of support is going in, but doubt that there's much controversy surrounding his candicacy.
Are we going to have, if Chase Utley gets in, Kelly should too?
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
Finally got around to seeing this last night. Wasn't as well done as the others and felt rushed. That said, I don't need any stat heads to tell me this, but Andruw was truly an elite defender. Anyone who can't tell this didn't watch him play or didn't pay attention. I really believe if he played his prime with the Yankees or Red Sox, we wouldn't even be having the discussion about whether he would be going in. And he was a pretty damn productive hitter for most of his career. So when you consider an elite defender with a pretty darn good bat, I believe he should get in, but either won't or will have to wait several years and hope for a light class.
