Economics Thread

[thethe]

Is it a good thing that this happens with Amazon? Probably not. I’m not sure what regulations would do.

But the general point is you don’t get all the amazing innovation without some side effects. Change sucks but maybe it’s not a bad thing if not everyone can be a third party retailer for Dyson vacuums or Samsung TVs, instead these people provide services that we need like airplane pilots, air traffic control, nurses, cops, and teachers.

You're assuming that everyone has the capacity to do these things. I think you're well aware the overwhelming majority of people can't.

I benefit greatly from the new style economy but I'm also aware that I was born with a Mathematical mind and I have advanced computer skills whereby my skills are in high demand. I am in a field with 'achievers' and they still can't do the things I do. The moral of the story is the mantra of 'learn to code' doesn't actually work.

 

[chop2chip]

You're assuming that everyone has the capacity to do these things. I think you're well aware the overwhelming majority of people can't.

I benefit greatly from the new style economy but I'm also aware that I was born with a Mathematical mind and I have advanced computer skills whereby my skills are in high demand. I am in a field with 'achievers' and they still can't do the things I do. The moral of the story is the mantra of 'learn to code' doesn't actually work.

The horseshoe makers will suffer, so we will stop training people to make horseshoes and instead make car engines. It might take a generation, but thus is the price you pay for human advancement.

I’m glad I don’t ride a horse to work.

 

[chop2chip]

You're assuming that everyone has the capacity to do these things. I think you're well aware the overwhelming majority of people can't.

I benefit greatly from the new style economy but I'm also aware that I was born with a Mathematical mind and I have advanced computer skills whereby my skills are in high demand. I am in a field with 'achievers' and they still can't do the things I do. The moral of the story is the mantra of 'learn to code' doesn't actually work.

Learn to code is silly in the short term.

It’s absolutely what is happening in the long term. It is parental malpractice not to expose your children to coding fundamentals. It doesn’t mean everyone will grow up to be a developer as our society will still need different skill sets. But I bet our society will benefit more for the incremental software developer versus the incremental 3rd party retailer.

 

[thethe]

The horseshoe makers will suffer, so we will stop training people to make horseshoes and instead make car engines. It might take a generation, but thus is the price you pay for human advancement.

I’m glad I don’t ride a horse to work.

Of course its the best long term decision but to ignore the current time we live in and what downstream impacts it will have to global stability is asking for a disaster.

 

[chop2chip]

Of course its the best long term decision but to ignore the current time we live in and what downstream impacts it will have to global stability is asking for a disaster.

Breaking up Amazon because you don’t like that they can offer lower prices than local businesses is you telling the future pool of labor we want more hardware store owners, when the market is telling us that actually we don’t.

 

[thethe]

Breaking up Amazon because you don’t like that they can offer lower prices than local businesses is you telling the future pool of labor we want more hardware store owners, when the market is telling us that actually we don’t.

I absolutely want to tell future generations to be more entrepreneurial and not just work for a global conglomerate.

The fact of the matter is the overwhelming majority of the population is just not very bright. That is true now and its been true in every other period in modern history.

If we don't give these people an offshoot to provide for themselves and their family the whole system will collapse.

 

[chop2chip]

I absolutely want to tell future generations to be more entrepreneurial and not just work for a global conglomerate.

The fact of the matter is the overwhelming majority of the population is just not very bright. That is true now and its been true in every other period in modern history.

If we don't give these people an offshoot to provide for themselves and their family the whole system will collapse.

You think that’s what you are telling them, but actually you are telling them to sell vacuums and pencils and toys and chairs.

The free market should determine what type of entrepreneurship is needed, not the government.

 

[thethe]

You think that’s what you are telling them, but actually you are telling them to sell vacuums and pencils and toys and chairs.

The free market should determine what type of entrepreneurship is needed, not the government.

The free market is going to destroy these peoples futures and are relegating them to be in cubicles (for as long as cubicle work exists) for the rest of their lives.

Human innovation has been driven by less than 1% of 1% of the global population. That isn't going to dramatically change overnight.

 

[chop2chip]

The free market is going to destroy these peoples futures and are relegating them to be in cubicles (for as long as cubicle work exists) for the rest of their lives.

Life is better today than it was 10 years than it was 20 years ago than it was 50 years ago than it was 200 years ago.

People are working in cubicles at the lowest rate since the white collar revolution. It’s never been easier to start a business (thanks AWS). If you don’t want a traditional office job, we have a enormous shortage of doctors, nurses, pilots, electricians, plumbers, etc. Construction workers are in demand because the remote work revolution (thanks again AWS) has increased the demand for home office space.

Not sure why you want to disrupt all of this to achieve a policy goal. You are using the same logic the Green New Deal uses to justify an end by any means necessary.

 

[thethe]

Life is better today than it was 10 years than it was 20 years ago than it was 50 years ago than it was 200 years ago.

People are working in cubicles at the lowest rate since the white collar revolution. It’s never been easier to start a business (thanks AWS). If you don’t want a traditional office job, we have a enormous shortage of doctors, nurses, pilots, electricians, plumbers, etc. Construction workers are in demand because the remote work revolution (thanks again AWS) has increased the demand for home office space.

Not sure why you want to disrupt all of this to achieve a policy goal. You are using the same logic the Green New Deal uses to justify an end by any means necessary.

Again - You are just assuming people can do these things. You have more faith in the aptitude of the majority of the population than I do.

 

[chop2chip]

Again - You are just assuming people can do these things. You have more faith in the aptitude of the majority of the population than I do.

You are assuming there are no jobs for low skilled labor in a modern economy. In what ways is that actually true? The US unemployment rate is at low rates not seen since the 1950's. People are finding work just fine.

As for quality of life, there's nothing to debate.

 

[zitothebrave]

You're comparing the battling of large corporations on world changing tech versus a slight change to an everyday household product that starts to sell like crazy. Amazon identifies this product is selling in high numbers - Copies it - Changes the algorithm so shoppers buy theres instead of the person that thought of it in the first place.

You can stand with Amazon on these practices if you want. I choose not to.

AWS isn't just an everyday household product. If it was so easy to make AWS why didn't everyone do it? Amazon has a revenue of 62 Billion. You don't think other people wouldn't want a piece of that action? AWS grew from a number of standpoints

What you're attempting to describe is Amazon.com. Not AWS. AWS was always built inside of Amazon as far as a core competency. Bezos knew the value of hosting and as things were evolving was on things.

You don't have to buy from Amazon, you have that right. But that isn't basis around the idea that some Venture Capitalist could have funded a similar product is asinine. Odds are that if AWS wasn't here the best case scenario, is Azure steps up and fills that gap.

 

[zitothebrave]

You are assuming there are no jobs for low skilled labor in a modern economy. In what ways is that actually true? The US unemployment rate is at low rates not seen since the 1950's. People are finding work just fine.

As for quality of life, there's nothing to debate.

There's plenty of space for low skill and unskilled labor. There's no space for manufacturing gigs in America because simply you cannot compete on a global scale with China. All we can hope to do is diversify. But no other country int he world can handle product launches like China, no one can mobilize a large and cheap working force like China. Even with th egrowing costs of doing business in China it's still not doable yet.

What we need to work on is a few things.

1. Faster and better 3d printing and automated processes. These things will allow more manufacturing in US and other countries and would make the countries making this tech the top dog. China will still be a massive global power because of their natural resources, but it will be neutered.

2. Better use of technological economics. If America can lead the world in automation, UBI would be massive and allow people to do a number of things they can do to make more money in other ventures or even just work on projects like art and the sort. Or work jobs they like rather than ones they need for money.

 

[chop2chip]

I am not morally against the idea of UBI. I think it merits discussion.

But color me skeptical that UBI would free people up to be creative and innovate. Not a lot of examples from history where innovation wasn’t directly spurred by motive to profit. I would in fact be shocked if it didn’t cause an epidemic of laziness (obesity, drug and alcohol abuse, declining birth rates, etc.)

 

[mqt]

I am not morally against the idea of UBI. I think it merits discussion.

But color me skeptical that UBI would free people up to be creative and innovate. Not a lot of examples from history where innovation wasn’t directly spurred by motive to profit. I would in fact be shocked if it didn’t cause an epidemic of laziness (obesity, drug and alcohol abuse, declining birth rates, etc.)

I think it’d be an even more direct breakdown in the form of higher rents and other costs. It’s the same reason I don’t believe in a $15 minimum wage despite fully embracing the intent behind it. I think rather than doing a UBI, I’d prefer to see a greater emphasis on things like government-funded housing and food.

 

[Krgrecw]

I am not morally against the idea of UBI. I think it merits discussion.

But color me skeptical that UBI would free people up to be creative and innovate. Not a lot of examples from history where innovation wasn’t directly spurred by motive to profit. I would in fact be shocked if it didn’t cause an epidemic of laziness (obesity, drug and alcohol abuse, declining birth rates, etc.)

I think the latter part of your post is spot on

 

[sturg33]

probably slightly positive

It's not a good sign that the NORMS™ regime is changing the definition of the word recession.

But the reality is, it was all but confirmed when this post was made

 

[Jaw]

I absolutely want to tell future generations to be more entrepreneurial and not just work for a global conglomerate.

The fact of the matter is the overwhelming majority of the population is just not very bright. That is true now and its been true in every other period in modern history.

If we don't give these people an offshoot to provide for themselves and their family the whole system will collapse.

Financial incentives for US based manufacturing takes care of this. Stuff from China isn't cheaper because they're better at manufacturing. They got all of their manufacturing expertise from US companies. In many cases they've kicked the US company out since then. We require US manufacturers to pay a minimum wage that's higher than the China wages, we require permitting and licensing and environmental impact studies to build that aren't required in China. We require occupational safety standards that are unheard of in China, we have pollution safeguards in place that aren't in place in China. All of that liability falls directly on the American workers who can only control it via the ballot box, the corporations don't suffer because they just offshore the work.

That's the angle this needs to be attacked from. It isn't a free market issue, because Americans aren't being allowed by their own government to compete in a free market. Require any imported manufactured goods to meet US environmental, safety, and wage requirements, or pay a massive import duty.

Side note: We put restrictions on livestock because of the methane they produce, so now most of our pork comes from the other side of the world on a ship that burns fossil fuel to get here. More expensive for American farmers, more expensive for American consumers, far more damaging to the environment.

 

[thethe]

Financial incentives for US based manufacturing takes care of this. Stuff from China isn't cheaper because they're better at manufacturing. They got all of their manufacturing expertise from US companies. In many cases they've kicked the US company out since then. We require US manufacturers to pay a minimum wage that's higher than the China wages, we require permitting and licensing and environmental impact studies to build that aren't required in China. We require occupational safety standards that are unheard of in China, we have pollution safeguards in place that aren't in place in China. All of that liability falls directly on the American workers who can only control it via the ballot box, the corporations don't suffer because they just offshore the work.

That's the angle this needs to be attacked from. It isn't a free market issue, because Americans aren't being allowed by their own government to compete in a free market. Require any imported manufactured goods to meet US environmental, safety, and wage requirements, or pay a massive import duty.

Side note: We put restrictions on livestock because of the methane they produce, so now most of our pork comes from the other side of the world on a ship that burns fossil fuel to get here. More expensive for American farmers, more expensive for American consumers, far more damaging to the environment.

Exactly - But consulting firms that moved all of our manufacturing overseas have made a bunch of money on the downfall of the American middle class. HOORAY FREE MARKET!

It should be the principal focus of the 'New Right' to bring as much of the COGS part of the equation back to the US.

 

[Jaw]

https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/10.1287/mnsc.2021.4082


In this paper, we study the impact of labor unions on product quality failures. We use a product recall as our measure of quality failure because it is an objective metric that is applicable to a broad cross-section of industries. Our analysis employs a union panel setting and close union elections in a regression discontinuity design framework to overcome identification issues. In the panel regressions, we find that firms that are unionized and those that have higher unionization rates experience a greater frequency of quality failures. The results obtain even at a more granular establishment level in a subsample in which we can identify the manufacturing establishment associated with the recalled product. When comparing firms in close elections, we find that firms with close union wins are followed by significantly worse product quality outcomes than those with close union losses. These results are amplified in non–right-to-work states, where unions have a relatively greater influence on the workforce. We find that unionization increases firms’ costs and operating leverage and, consequently, crowds out investments that potentially impact quality. We also find some suggestive evidence that unions may compromise quality by hurting employee morale and by resisting technological upgrades in the firm. Overall, our results suggest that unions have an adverse impact on product recalls, and thus, product quality is an important dimension along which unions impact businesses.

I'm curious how they measured a drop in morale after union membership. I've known many, many people who experienced the start of unionization, and quite a few who were hired into a union shop after never working in one. I haven't heard anything but appreciation of the unions from any of them.