Economics Thread

[Jaw]

Im really happy that the horse and buggy job industry was devastated when Henry Ford created something better. And im thankful he sourced parts like rubber from his tires from international supply chains in order to devastate those markets

But I know those horse and buggy unions and job holders were screaming evil globalism when it happened

Sure, and that isn’t analogous to any of the examples I listed. I had family in WNC who worked at a DuPont plant making xray film. Others worked at the GE plant that made the first lights used at Wrigley.

The DuPont plant shut down because xray film was made obsolete by digital photos. I never use that as an example of the downside of free trade.

The GE plant turned into a shell because manufacturing of the products they made moved to Mexico right after NAFTA was finalized. Free trade was directly responsible for the loss of those rural, good paying, blue collar jobs.

 

[Jaw]

Its hard to comprehend the stupidity of this sentiment

Without global free trade, we wouldnt be able to manufacture the chips required for you to have a career of pasting formulas in excel

It’s not possible to build manufacturing facilities in the US capable of stamping out microchips?

 

[Jaw]

One of my favorite things about that evil free trade is that 36 years on planet earth I've never gone to a store and encountered a item i wanted not available to me

I'll go read up on Cuba and Venezuela and see their experience to get ready

I’m a little older than you, so I have memories of the time before free trade. We had places like malls, and Wal Mart, Toys r Us, Sears, Montgomery Ward…I never encountered that either. Everything known to man was available within a short drive from my backwater Appalachian hollow.

 

[Jaw]

And our aluminum products

And our steel products

And our furniture

Etc

Etc

Aluminum, steel, and furniture were all big industries in the US. Until corporations moved them overseas to take advantage of free trade agreements.

 

[Jaw]

My 24 Tundra hybrid, with a big ass battery and v6 gets about the same as my 2005 Chev z71 does. Trip computer says 14.0

Auto regulations are a brutal hidden tax.

 

[sturg33]

I’m a little older than you, so I have memories of the time before free trade. We had places like malls, and Wal Mart, Toys r Us, Sears, Montgomery Ward…I never encountered that either. Everything known to man was available within a short drive from my backwater Appalachian hollow.

Unless your 245 years old, you havent lived in an America that didn't freely trade with other countries

 

[sturg33]

It’s not possible to build manufacturing facilities in the US capable of stamping out microchips?

Not with the same scale and affordable as we today. And by affordability, I dont mean human slave labor... I mean the ability to source all the parts required cost effectively to make them available to the masses.

Im sure you've read the essay "I, Pencil"

 

[Jaw]

I keep seeing comments about not being able to make things here or comparisons to food lines in the Soviet Union. Where are you guys getting this from? This isn’t government enforced rationing or some new and unproven concept. My kids aren’t out of school yet and it was the way things worked in my lifetime. We had cool shoes, beer, fast cars, rock music, and everything. Nearly everything in Wal Mart had a “Made in the USA” sign above it with a little US flag. It was great.

 

[Jaw]

Unless your 245 years old, you havent lived in an America that didn't freely trade with other countries

I assumed you realized that I was referring to the era of NAFTA and China being allowed in the WTO.

 

[sturg33]

I keep seeing comments about not being able to make things here or comparisons to food lines in the Soviet Union. Where are you guys getting this from? This isn’t government enforced rationing or some new and unproven concept. My kids aren’t out of school yet and it was the way things worked in my lifetime. We had cool shoes, beer, fast cars, rock music, and everything. Nearly everything in Wal Mart had a “Made in the USA” sign above it with a little US flag. It was great.

Youre acting as if the US wasn't trading with other countries during this time.

Nike began manufacturing their shoes in Asia in the early 1970. I presume this was while you were growing up wearing their cool shoes

 

[sturg33]

I assumed you realized that I was referring to the era of NAFTA and China being allowed in the WTO.

For the record im against NAFTA and all trade agreements as that is not free market

 

[Jaw]

Not with the same scale and affordable as we today. And by affordability, I dont mean human slave labor... I mean the ability to source all the parts required cost effectively to make them available to the masses.

Im sure you've read the essay "I, Pencil"

Sure, and the revenue remains in the US. Fewer adults relying on gig or service industry jobs, or welfare, to make a living.

 

[Jaw]

Youre acting as if the US wasn't trading with other countries during this time.

Nike began manufacturing their shoes in Asia in the early 1970. I presume this was while you were growing up wearing their cool shoes

My family was poor, I wore Voits and Franklins and they were not cool. They started fights.

 

[sturg33]

My family was poor, I wore Voits and Franklins and they were not cool. They started fights.

My family was poor, I wore Voits and Franklins and they were not cool. They started fights.

The cool shoes you mentioned above available in the malls were probably manufactured overseas though

 

[sturg33]

Sure, and the revenue remains in the US. Fewer adults relying on gig or service industry jobs, or welfare, to make a living.

I guess its a matter of preference. Do you want to maximize abundance here for our people, or do you want to centrally plan a job market for people.

Im on the abundance side.

If you want to talk about life is so unaffordable today for many, thats a different "economic" topic. Thats about deficits and dollar devaluation.

As an aside, one of my favorite imports we do is oil. I love giving other countries our worthless dollars in exchange for their valuable assets like oil, while we sit on the largest supply on the planet. Its brilliant strategy if you ask me

 

[Jaw]

Probably. I’m not saying we need a naval blockade or a trade embargo. I’ll never expect everything to be made here. I also don’t like the random way Trump tosses and tariffs and exceptions around. My point is just that the US is very capable of producing most of what it consumes, and did so until globalization was supercharged with Chinas admission to the WTO, China receiving most favored nation status, and agreements like NAFTA, that all resulted in a lot of the manufacturing moving outside of the US.

 

[chop2chip]

Probably. I’m not saying we need a naval blockade or a trade embargo. I’ll never expect everything to be made here. I also don’t like the random way Trump tosses and tariffs and exceptions around. My point is just that the US is very capable of producing most of what it consumes, and did so until globalization was supercharged with Chinas admission to the WTO, China receiving most favored nation status, and agreements like NAFTA, that all resulted in a lot of the manufacturing moving outside of the US.

I don’t fundamentally disagree with this. I’m open to arguments that our government should play a role to encourage certain industries to on shore in the name of national defense.

But I only sometimes hear that argument and it’s often drowned out by Bessent and Trump patting themselves on the back for collecting record tariff revenue and lack of honesty around consumer prices. Tariffs are a tax on consumers. They drive inflation. That inflation isn’t just on “luxury goods” like hammers.

Aces states this often, but Maga (and this administration) are constantly making contradicting arguments.

And we need to stop shaming people for being pissed that prices go up. Trump in large part was elected because of inflation. The burden to make the case for a new tax falls squarely on those who are unilaterally imposing them.

 

[mqt]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1961413793583448469

I’m not actually sure I remember the last time gas was more expensive near me.

 

[sturg33]

A massive political gift handed to Trump. Bailed out of his own incompetence and will be able to blame the coming recession on this decision

https://twitter.com/x/status/1961541643720433778

 

[nsacpi]

The dissent (by 2 Republican appointed and 2 Democratic appointed judges) is interesting and in my mind has a certain amount of logic. I don't think the trade deficits are an emergency. But that is not for me to decide. That is for the president to decide. And the country elected a president who believes that a deficit in say toasters or sneakers is an emergency. The fact that the country has been running such deficits for a long time and that previous presidents didn't consider them to be an emergency is irrelevant. The current president thinks they are an emergency.

I don't think any of us would dispute a president can decide it is an emergency if we started running very large deficits in food with a country that was an adversary. So why shouldn't he be able to decide a deficit in toasters and sneakers is also an emergency. He's the guy the country elected to make these determinations. I think there be will some, maybe even a majority, on the Supreme Court who will agree with the reasoning in the dissent. It is not the role of the courts to protect us from bad policy.