Nice to be gifted Freeman/Heyward/Kimbrel/Teheran/Medlen/Beachy/Hanson/etc... at dirt cheap prices.
Fangraphs Top 100 Prospects
- Thread starter CJ9
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Nice to be gifted Freeman/Heyward/Kimbrel/Teheran/Medlen/Beachy/Hanson/etc... at dirt cheap prices.
Don't forget Casey Kotchman who was forced upon him
Wren had his flaws but I thought he got the short end of the stick when he was fired. Much like the previous regime he never got a chance to fully rebuild when he took over. And wasn't given a chance to do it again whenever the window started to close. I do think he put some very competitive teams on the field and overall did a good job. The character assassination when he was fired was just par the course for when someone leaves the organization.
I'm sure many other people would have loved that amount of young cheap talent to build a winner. The fact that he couldn't get it done is an indictment against his ability.
Get what done? Win a WS or build a team that wins a lot of games? Because he certainly accomplished one of those.
As if 'building' a team that won a lot of games was incredibly difficult with the sheer depth of young pre-arb talent that was provided. Do you even want to go over what he was given?
Yes building a winning team is now easy. Anybody can do it...except Coppy
Yeah - The situations were EXACTLY the same when the two took over.
If you weren't a smart guy I could accept the fact that you make these stupid arguments but since its obvious that you are intelligent all I can say is that you are just intellectually dishonest.
jpx7
Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is.
Wren was underrated a bit around here, and his sins and failings were pretty vastly overrated when he was pushed at the door (as seems par for this "high-calibre, high-character" organization's course). Likewise, Hart and Coppolella were somewhat overrated around here until their sins and failings brought the developmental death-hammer down on the organization for the new few years.
I'd take Anthopoulos over any of them, at the present moment.
I'd take Anthopoulos over any of them, at the present moment.
About what? Coppy had a ton of talent infused into the team with the various trades of Simmons, Kimbrel, Heyward, Gattis, and Upton. That group was praised for bringing in all that talent. Making shrewd moves like getting Kemp for that albatross HO and so forth. All moves to allow the team to compete in 2017 with the opening of the new stadium. But that didn't happen. Seems like building a winning is a little harder than you might think.
Yes, 21-25 year old pre-arb talent is the same as 18-20 year old minor league talent.
Geez
What ages/level do you think the likes of Kimbrel, Heyward, and Freeman etc were when Wren took over?
The top prospects that Coppy and Co traded for have either completely busted or been meh to this point. The only two good players acquired to this point have been Ender and Flowers. But putting a winner on the field is easy...
striker42
Well-known member
Coppy made what looks to be a masterful move in getting Gohara for Mallex. However, Coppy made one of the worst deals in Braves history in trading for Olivera.
Wren made a masterful move in the trade he made for Justin Upton. However, Wren's extension of Chris Johnson and his signing of BJ were utter disasters.
No GM is as good as their best move and no GM is as bad as their worst. The reality is that both Wren and Coppy had flaws that doomed their tenures. Wren brokered some excellent trades but his management style was so abrasive that he drove a lot of front office talent away. That started to show when the minor league depth thinned and there were some high profile miscalculations (again, BJ Upton).
Coppy provided a boldness that was needed to rebuild. Our minor league depth is largely due to him. If we hit on some of these guy and have a championship window open, Coppy's will be owed some credit. However, with what we know now it was just a matter of time until Coppy flamed out. Either through alienating the rest of the teams in the league or, like what happened, through rule breaking, Coppy was not going to last.
Building a winning team is insanely difficult and very few people are capable of doing it consistently. Neither Wren nor Coppy were capable of doing that. While JS did have it easier in the early days with a large payroll, he was able to keep the Braves competitive year after year, even when the payroll shrank. People give JS grief (largely resentment for the Tex trade) but he was able to keep the team sustainably competitive. A very, very hard thing to do.
Wren made a masterful move in the trade he made for Justin Upton. However, Wren's extension of Chris Johnson and his signing of BJ were utter disasters.
No GM is as good as their best move and no GM is as bad as their worst. The reality is that both Wren and Coppy had flaws that doomed their tenures. Wren brokered some excellent trades but his management style was so abrasive that he drove a lot of front office talent away. That started to show when the minor league depth thinned and there were some high profile miscalculations (again, BJ Upton).
Coppy provided a boldness that was needed to rebuild. Our minor league depth is largely due to him. If we hit on some of these guy and have a championship window open, Coppy's will be owed some credit. However, with what we know now it was just a matter of time until Coppy flamed out. Either through alienating the rest of the teams in the league or, like what happened, through rule breaking, Coppy was not going to last.
Building a winning team is insanely difficult and very few people are capable of doing it consistently. Neither Wren nor Coppy were capable of doing that. While JS did have it easier in the early days with a large payroll, he was able to keep the Braves competitive year after year, even when the payroll shrank. People give JS grief (largely resentment for the Tex trade) but he was able to keep the team sustainably competitive. A very, very hard thing to do.
Braves1976
It's OVER 5,000!
Coppy also traded Simmons which will in the end likely go down as bad or worse than the Olivera and Kemp trades. Simmons is that special.
The Gohara trade looks to be his best, but if Gohara goes down to TJ surgery soon that could change too. Gohara's medicals were why Cincy nixed a deal for him. Hopefully they overreacted and Gohara continues to impress without injury anytime soon (and also not when we're ready to be a playoff team again).
The Gohara trade looks to be his best, but if Gohara goes down to TJ surgery soon that could change too. Gohara's medicals were why Cincy nixed a deal for him. Hopefully they overreacted and Gohara continues to impress without injury anytime soon (and also not when we're ready to be a playoff team again).
Never once did I overrate Coppy and Hart haha.
First step is to obviously not sign Hosmer.
Second step would be to flip Duffy for a nice little return, rather than wasting him like the Braves did with Teheran. Then do the same with Sal Perez to a team like the Nats.
They will get 3 picks for losing Hos, Mous and Cain. Add those 3 picks with the returns for Duffy and Perez, plus their regular draft picks, and suddenly they have built a respectable farm system in less than 1 year.
Take risks on upside plays like the Rox did with Holland, and the Brewers did with Thames, and the Cubs did with Smyly, and the Cards did with Mikolas in hopes of generating value that can be converted into more prospect capital if they pan out.
Continue to buy prospects by taking on contracts like Kemp and Ellsbury, and lose a lot of games.
Stay on that course and suddenly they have a Top 5ish farm in 3-4 years and can look to turn the corner again.
When they are ready to turn the corner to competitiveness in 2023+, make sure the payroll is bottomed out like the Phillies have done so additions can be made as required to fill holes.
That's the standard blueprint for a 5 year rebuild.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Not exactly the same. But Coppy also inherited some top prospects. Acuna, Albies. Even Camargo who could yet emerge as a regular. And of course, all of the young major league talent he was able to trade away. Coppy had one very good draft (2015) and one great trade (with Dave Stewart). Otherwise, he was mediocre to downright incompetent.
To be fair, his Mallex for Gohara trade is looking pretty damn good.
Scoop up all the pitchers and one will work out!
Hudson2
Well-known member
I don’t dislike the Heyward trade bc it ended up with the Swanson trade. But looking back on Upton, Kimbrel (never should have bundled him), Simmons, and Gattis we should have gotten back a few no doubter blue chip prospects. Coppy settled for quantity and that’s just not how it should of been done. Instead of trading for Kemp we should have just held onto BJ and traded him later if possible to get a better return for Kimbrel. I know hindsight is 20/20 but damn. And Teheran and Freeman should have went to at the time. The team would look a whole lot different..for the better.