France attack...

[thethe]

It really scares me that there are so many people out there that believe we are being attacked solely because of our actions. This is not a 20 year struggle. Not a 40 year. Not even a 100 year struggle. This cancerous belief system has infected the world for far too long and it has to be stopped.

 

[Dalyn]

It really scares me that there are so many people out there that believe we are being attacked solely because of our actions. This is not a 20 year struggle. Not a 40 year. Not even a 100 year struggle. This cancerous belief system has infected the world for far too long and it has to be stopped.

That's a fact. And the hesitation to blame ideology that we see from so many who should be allies in this particular fight is (perhaps ironically) a symptom of the same ultimate problem.

 

[thethe]

That's a fact. And the hesitation to blame ideology that we see from so many who should be allies in this particular fight is (perhaps ironically) a symptom of the same ultimate problem.

I would guess the fear is that eventually the same mob will turn on their faith. I understand where the though comes from but this battle is too important to the future of this world. It has to be addressed now with absolute conviction. These animals must be stopped.

 

[Dalyn]

I would guess the fear is that eventually the same mob will turn on their faith. I understand where the though comes from but this battle is too important to the future of this world. It has to be addressed now with absolute conviction. These animals must be stopped.

That's not really what I meant, though perhaps that plays a part with some of them. But I've seen atheists acting the same way. It's this unhealthy respect for religion that has been stuffed in our heads since birth. Christians and Muslims might be fighting physically and also waging an ideological war, but they are both products or symptoms (however you want to word it) of the same problem and they war in a similar fashion when it comes to the soft conquest (if you will) of thought.

 

[Oklahomahawk]

I would guess the fear is that eventually the same mob will turn on their faith. I understand where the though comes from but this battle is too important to the future of this world. It has to be addressed now with absolute conviction. These animals must be stopped.

To be fair to sturg, steak sauce, etc., some of the things we do sometimes does make the problem worse, like some of W's let's invade Iraq thing and carpet bombing too much, and both Clinton and Obama like to kill from afar, Clinton more with cruise missiles, Obama with drones. This stuff kills the bad guys AND a whole bunch of other people around them, and this gives the bad folks lots of recruiting ammo.

The bad people need to go and soon, but to be honest we do make their process of recruiting more bad people easier than it should be. I would like to see us have better relations with the majority of Muslims over there who are good people and if we had a slightly lower profile sometimes they could tell us where the bad guys are without getting killed for it and to me that would just kill several birds with one stone, metaphorically speaking. The radicals will never stop hating us, only (hopefully) breathing long enough to act on it.

And sturg/steak sauce, even if we are totally guilty of causing this situation (which I don't believe) it's too late to do the "play nice" card. We've pissed them off now, and hating/killing us is what keeps their extremist mullahs and military leaders in power. They won't let go of this EVER, we have to get rid of them and hopefully learn a few lessons along the way.

 

[thethe]

To be fair to sturg, steak sauce, etc., some of the things we do sometimes does make the problem worse, like some of W's let's invade Iraq thing and carpet bombing too much, and both Clinton and Obama like to kill from afar, Clinton more with cruise missiles, Obama with drones. This stuff kills the bad guys AND a whole bunch of other people around them, and this gives the bad folks lots of recruiting ammo.

The bad people need to go and soon, but to be honest we do make their process of recruiting more bad people easier than it should be. I would like to see us have better relations with the majority of Muslims over there who are good people and if we had a slightly lower profile sometimes they could tell us where the bad guys are without getting killed for it and to me that would just kill several birds with one stone, metaphorically speaking. The radicals will never stop hating us, only (hopefully) breathing long enough to act on it.

And sturg/steak sauce, even if we are totally guilty of causing this situation (which I don't believe) it's too late to do the "play nice" card. We've pissed them off now, and hating/killing us is what keeps their extremist mullahs and military leaders in power. They won't let go of this EVER, we have to get rid of them and hopefully learn a few lessons along the way.

I've always admitted that our tactics have not helped us but this was always coming to a boiling point since people have embraced the modern wafare technology. In addition, the internet was the tipping point for their recruiting. It allowed them to reach further than ever before and recruit more than ever before. This was unavoidable whether the West never dropped a bomb or dropped a million. This is what these people want. They want to have a war to end all wars. The future is going to be very different.

 

[Dalyn]

I've always admitted that our tactics have not helped us but this was always coming to a boiling point since people have embraced the modern wafare technology. In addition, the internet was the tipping point for their recruiting. It allowed them to reach further than ever before and recruit more than ever before. This was unavoidable whether the West never dropped a bomb or dropped a million. This is what these people want. They want to have a war to end all wars. The future is going to be very different.

Yeah. The only thing we did when we attacked is interrupt their schedule. We put an early stop to the stage they were at and pushed them into the next stage of their ultimate plan and perhaps put ourselves in place of some other more immediate enemy they had in mind. But we (and everyone else not with them) were on their list and they would've got to us eventually and would've been stronger for it if allowed to follow their plans without interruption.

 

[thethe]

Yeah. The only thing we did when we attacked is interrupt their schedule. We put an early stop to the stage they were at and pushed them into the next stage of their ultimate plan and perhaps put ourselves in place of some other more immediate enemy they had in mind. But we (and everyone else not with them) were on their list and they would've got to us eventually and would've been stronger for it if allowed to follow their plans without interruption.

Exactly. The big problem was going into Iraq. Should have taken down Iran. Then we would have been in a much better spot but the damn Liberals in this country would have never let that fly.

 

[Dalyn]

Exactly. The big problem was going into Iraq. Should have taken down Iran. Then we would have been in a much better spot but the damn Liberals in this country would have never let that fly.

Yep. Going into Iraq was a HUGE misstep. Instead of interrupting their plans (or perhaps we even managed to cause them to fail in the stage they were at and perhaps even the next couple stages--to a degree) we could've decimated them if we had ignored Iraq.

 

[57Brave]

To even approach understanding the state of affairs in the Muslim world a peek at the history of the region and our complicity in the design,governance and rape of their resources.
The similarities to our treatment of and the reaction of Native Americans is eery. Even last week there were reports of another treaty getting ready to be broken . This isn't 1900

Of course they hate us. Not because we are free or because we are predominantly Christian nation but because BIG PICTURE !! We screwed them over and over and over.
How's bout we quit screwing them over. They killed people over a drawing - why ? IS it not a tenet of Islam that there is to be no likeness of Muhammad?
How's bout someone go up to the meanest baddest biggest black man you can find and call him a ******!! What will be that reaction
Why did these cartoonist draw pictures of Muhammad ? Why ? My guess is to poke the hornets nest - make a buck.
To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Abraham Lincoln said that

Read some history of the area:
http://www.spiegel.de/international...-of-violence-in-the-middle-east-a-946052.html

In no other theater of World War I are the results of that epochal conflict still as current as they are in the Middle East. Nowhere else does the early 20th century orgy of violence still determine political conditions to the same degree. The so-called European Civil War, a term used to describe the period of bloody violence that racked Europe from 1914 onwards, came to an end in 1945. The Cold War ceased in 1990. But the tensions unleashed on the Arab world by World War I remain as acute as ever. Essentially, the Middle East finds itself in the same situation now as Europe did following the 1919 Treaty of Versailles: standing before a map that disregards the region's ethnic and confessional realities.

 

[Dalyn]

To even approach understanding the state of affairs in the Muslim world a peek at the history of the region and our complicity in the design,governance and rape of their resources.
The similarities to our treatment of and the reaction of Native Americans is eery. Even last week there were reports of another treaty getting ready to be broken . This isn't 1900

Of course they hate us. Not because we are free or because we are predominantly Christian nation but because BIG PICTURE !! We screwed them over and over and over.
How's bout we quit screwing them over. They killed people over a drawing - why ? IS it not a tenet of Islam that there is to be no likeness of Muhammad?
How's bout someone go up to the meanest baddest biggest black man you can find and call him a ******!! What will be that reaction
Why did these cartoonist draw pictures of Muhammad ? Why ? My guess is to poke the hornets nest - make a buck.
To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Abraham Lincoln said that

Read some history of the area:
http://www.spiegel.de/international...-of-violence-in-the-middle-east-a-946052.html

In no other theater of World War I are the results of that epochal conflict still as current as they are in the Middle East. Nowhere else does the early 20th century orgy of violence still determine political conditions to the same degree. The so-called European Civil War, a term used to describe the period of bloody violence that racked Europe from 1914 onwards, came to an end in 1945. The Cold War ceased in 1990. But the tensions unleashed on the Arab world by World War I remain as acute as ever. Essentially, the Middle East finds itself in the same situation now as Europe did following the 1919 Treaty of Versailles: standing before a map that disregards the region's ethnic and confessional realities.

What you seem incapable of understanding (or you just want to ignore it for the sake of your point) is that this war started before the birth of our nation. You say to read some history of the area, and I say, "Please, do."

 

[thethe]

To even approach understanding the state of affairs in the Muslim world a peek at the history of the region and our complicity in the design,governance and rape of their resources.
The similarities to our treatment of and the reaction of Native Americans is eery. Even last week there were reports of another treaty getting ready to be broken . This isn't 1900

Of course they hate us. Not because we are free or because we are predominantly Christian nation but because BIG PICTURE !! We screwed them over and over and over.
How's bout we quit screwing them over. They killed people over a drawing - why ? IS it not a tenet of Islam that there is to be no likeness of Muhammad?
How's bout someone go up to the meanest baddest biggest black man you can find and call him a ******!! What will be that reaction
Why did these cartoonist draw pictures of Muhammad ? Why ? My guess is to poke the hornets nest - make a buck.
To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Abraham Lincoln said that

Read some history of the area:
http://www.spiegel.de/international...-of-violence-in-the-middle-east-a-946052.html

In no other theater of World War I are the results of that epochal conflict still as current as they are in the Middle East. Nowhere else does the early 20th century orgy of violence still determine political conditions to the same degree. The so-called European Civil War, a term used to describe the period of bloody violence that racked Europe from 1914 onwards, came to an end in 1945. The Cold War ceased in 1990. But the tensions unleashed on the Arab world by World War I remain as acute as ever. Essentially, the Middle East finds itself in the same situation now as Europe did following the 1919 Treaty of Versailles: standing before a map that disregards the region's ethnic and confessional realities.

It's the same thing over and over. No acknowledgement of how Islam plays the predominant role in this battle. It's this type of belief that these groups are hoping the West embraces.

 

[Dalyn]

To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Abraham Lincoln said that

That's actually Newton's third law, which predates Lincoln by over a century. Kind of how this war predates our nation by several centuries.

 

[57Brave]

That's actually Newton's third law, which predates Lincoln by over a century. Kind of how this war predates our nation by several centuries.

Really, Newton said that ?

If I read this thread correctly you , thethe and Bedell are in a sense advocating another round of Crusades.
Bedell I can understand but you two -- I hardly viewed youz as True Believers or converters. Which is in fact what you are asking this culture to do. Adopt our Christian ways.

Did you read or consider the article I provided . Not the only piece of the puzzle but another piece of a complicated history. Not just a "they are Barbarians and we are not" situation
////

My guess is the Arabic and English interpretation of the word "barbarians" is night and day. Speaking of history - that is not a novel notion

 

[Oklahomahawk]

It's the same thing over and over. No acknowledgement of how Islam plays the predominant role in this battle. It's this type of belief that these groups are hoping the West embraces.

You know you actually had me agreeing with you until the "...but the damn liberals would never have let that fly"......

Liberals couldn't possibly be as competent as Republicans make them out to be when they can use them as a convenient scapegoat for their own effups.

 

[thethe]

You know you actually had me agreeing with you until the "...but the damn liberals would never have let that fly"......

Liberals couldn't possibly be as competent as Republicans make them out to be when they can use them as a convenient scapegoat for their own effups.

I do believe that Liberalism has negatively impacted our country. We should have went in harder and faster into the Muslim world and really gotten the job done. But then you have people cyring and moaning about upsetting people that are trying ot kill us. Its absolute nonsense. Sometimes things have to get done regardless of how hard and how unfortunate they might be.

 

[Dalyn]

Really, Newton said that ?

If I read this thread correctly you , thethe and Bedell are in a sense advocating another round of Crusades.
Bedell I can understand but you two -- I hardly viewed youz as True Believers or converters. Which is in fact what you are asking this culture to do. Adopt our Christian ways.

Did you read or consider the article I provided . Not the only piece of the puzzle but another piece of a complicated history. Not just a "they are Barbarians and we are not" situation
////

My guess is the Arabic and English interpretation of the word "barbarians" is night and day

I did read it, and all that obviously changed the current landscape. For everyone, not just Muslim nations. But you don't even have to look at the full history of Islam to see what I am talking about. Just take a look at the Ottoman Empire. Who knows who started the religious war in that area. It could've been any of the three main religions there at the time (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). But the fact is that it started a long ass time ago and America sure as **** didn't start it.

As for the whole lumping me in with the adopting our Christian ways spiel. All you have to do is read my posts in this very thread to see that I am not even close to advocating that. Quite the opposite.

 

[57Brave]

Pope Francis On Charlie Hebdo: 'You Cannot Insult The Faith Of Others'

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE (AP) - Pope Francis said Thursday there are limits to freedom of expression, especially when it insults or ridicules someone's faith.

Francis spoke about the Paris terror attacks while en route to the Philippines, defending free speech as not only a fundamental human right but a duty to speak one's mind for the sake of the common good.

But he said there were limits.

By way of example, he referred to Alberto Gasparri, who organizes papal trips and was standing by his side aboard the papal plane.

"If my good friend Dr. Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch," Francis said, throwing a pretend punch his way. "It's normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others."

Many people around the world have defended the right of satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo to publish inflammatory cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed in the wake of the massacre by Islamic extremists at its Paris offices and subsequent attack on a kosher supermarket in which three gunmen killed 17 people.

But recently the Vatican and four prominent French imams issued a joint declaration that denounced the attacks but also urged the media to treat religions with respect.

Francis, who has urged Muslim leaders in particular to speak out against Islamic extremism, went a step further when asked by a French journalist about whether there were limits when freedom of expression meets freedom of religion.

Francis insisted that it was an "aberration" to kill in the name of God and said religion can never be used to justify violence.

But he said there was a limit to free speech when it concerned offending someone's religious beliefs.

"There are so many people who speak badly about religions or other religions, who make fun of them, who make a game out of the religions of others," he said. "They are provocateurs. And what happens to them is what would happen to Dr. Gasparri if he says a curse word against my mother. There is a limit."

In the wake of the Paris attacks, the Vatican has sought to downplay reports that it is a potential target for Islamic extremists, saying it is being vigilant but has received no specific threat.

Francis said he was concerned primarily for the faithful, and said he had spoken to Vatican security officials who are taking "prudent and secure measures."

"I am worried, but you know I have a defect: a good dose of carelessness. I'm careless about these things," he said. But he admitted that in his prayers, he had asked that if something were to happen to him that "it doesn't hurt, because I'm not very courageous when it comes to pain. I'm very timid."

He added, "I'm in God's hands."

 

[Oklahomahawk]

I do believe that Liberalism has negatively impacted our country. We should have went in harder and faster into the Muslim world and really gotten the job done. But then you have people cyring and moaning about upsetting people that are trying ot kill us. Its absolute nonsense. Sometimes things have to get done regardless of how hard and how unfortunate they might be.

If you really think liberals are this country's biggest problem you're half right

 

[thethe]

Pope Francis On Charlie Hebdo: 'You Cannot Insult The Faith Of Others'

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE (AP) - Pope Francis said Thursday there are limits to freedom of expression, especially when it insults or ridicules someone's faith.

Francis spoke about the Paris terror attacks while en route to the Philippines, defending free speech as not only a fundamental human right but a duty to speak one's mind for the sake of the common good.

But he said there were limits.

By way of example, he referred to Alberto Gasparri, who organizes papal trips and was standing by his side aboard the papal plane.

"If my good friend Dr. Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch," Francis said, throwing a pretend punch his way. "It's normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others."

Many people around the world have defended the right of satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo to publish inflammatory cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed in the wake of the massacre by Islamic extremists at its Paris offices and subsequent attack on a kosher supermarket in which three gunmen killed 17 people.

But recently the Vatican and four prominent French imams issued a joint declaration that denounced the attacks but also urged the media to treat religions with respect.

Francis, who has urged Muslim leaders in particular to speak out against Islamic extremism, went a step further when asked by a French journalist about whether there were limits when freedom of expression meets freedom of religion.

Francis insisted that it was an "aberration" to kill in the name of God and said religion can never be used to justify violence.

But he said there was a limit to free speech when it concerned offending someone's religious beliefs.

"There are so many people who speak badly about religions or other religions, who make fun of them, who make a game out of the religions of others," he said. "They are provocateurs. And what happens to them is what would happen to Dr. Gasparri if he says a curse word against my mother. There is a limit."

In the wake of the Paris attacks, the Vatican has sought to downplay reports that it is a potential target for Islamic extremists, saying it is being vigilant but has received no specific threat.

Francis said he was concerned primarily for the faithful, and said he had spoken to Vatican security officials who are taking "prudent and secure measures."

"I am worried, but you know I have a defect: a good dose of carelessness. I'm careless about these things," he said. But he admitted that in his prayers, he had asked that if something were to happen to him that "it doesn't hurt, because I'm not very courageous when it comes to pain. I'm very timid."

He added, "I'm in God's hands."

Bull. You should be able to insult anyones faith without the fear of being killed. Its that very reason that we must eliminate this threat.