France attack...

sturg33 said:
The point is, the man who was closest to the biggest focus on counter-terrorism in US history, has decided that we've got it all wrong, and goes to great lengths to explain why in multiple books. If you ever cared to hear a different point of view, you should check it out.
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I understand what Osama was trying to accomplish but don't mistake what his stated goals at the time were in comparison to what the overarching goals of these militant Islamists are.
 
Dalyn said:
These things are true and also can be said of many individuals and groups. Even Muslim ones. Whether or not some good comes out of religion on a group level or individual level is not ultimately the point. Overall, it is a destructive force that poisons everything. How it IS relative and CURRENTLY a point is that it moves certain symptoms up and down the immediate threat scale. The illness is still the problem, but when a symptom poses an immediate threat to the life of the patient, you deal with it and then go back to working on the illness.
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I don't have a problem with this, to me good is good and bad is bad no matter who does it. As far as the illness part comes in some atheists are every bit as big an ahole as any Christian, Muslim, and so on. Once again I've had friends and students who were atheists and told me so and they also told me that I treated them and their belief system fairly in class, etc. I"ve also known so called Christians who I wouldn't have minded putting out a fatwah (or however you spell that) one little bit. Again good is good. I like good people who do good things regardless of their other affiliations. I think you're a great guy, we don't agree on everything but as far as I know we still respect each others opinions. Isn't that the main thing?
 
Dalyn said:
In fairness, some of the top researches close to cures or more effective treatments are atheists. But like most everything else in their life, they don't make a point of using atheism as a reason for doing what they do. They aren't trying to put it front and center for recruitment.
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Eh, sometimes yes sometimes no, I think the Christian groups who fund hospitals, clinics, research, etc., use the Christian moniker to get other religious groups to help with the funding. If they do it for any other reason I would have a problem with it. To be fair, this is much more a point about radical Muslims who only seem to want to blow up stuff and don't seem to be involved in any worthwhile philanthropy.
 
Dalyn said:
Christianity is arguably a perverted religious sub-group of Judaism. Islam is arguably a perverted religious sub-group of Christianity and Judaism. Doesn't make either of them NOT a religion.
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I think you're fishing now my friend. I suppose if you gave me your definition of religion we could have a better debate on this chapter of the discussion. Just as long as neither of us has to have Tommy John surgery to qualify to take part in the debate. :icon_biggrin:
 
sturg33 said:
How familiar are you with Michael Scheuer? He is the former CIA chief that led the Usama Bin Landen unit. I've read a lot of his stuff over the years and my opinions as it relates to terrorism align more closely with his. He has said a lot of controversial things, many of which I don't agree with. But I think he is a lot more thoughtful regarding the Islamic threat than our media and government is. I believe our government (and other governments across the world), use the threat of terrorism as a means to expand its power.

Anyways, here's a brief wikipedia summary of Scheuer's view on the war on terror - which I agree with much of it:

Additionally, Scheuer wrote an entire book about our foreign called "Imperial Hubris", which criticized foreign policy mistakes while he was still supporting the OBL team (he got in trouble for this). Osama bin Laden acknowledged the book in a 2007 statement, suggesting that it revealed "the reasons for your losing the war against us."
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I would HIGHLY recommend The Black Banners by Ali Souffan, who actually started our files and profiles on bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and for the first 6 or 7 years (at least) after 9/11 he was THE only real authority on the matter.
 
I don't think its fair to lump all religion together. There is only one religion that is causing the deaths of thousands across the world in unspeakable fashion. I don't think the problem is the concept of a belief system but a specific set of beliefs that is the problem.
 
Oklahomahawk said:
I think you're a great guy, we don't agree on everything but as far as I know we still respect each others opinions. Isn't that the main thing?
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In an ideal world, that would certainly be near the top, if not the main thing. Unfortunately, that isn't the case under the current circumstances.
 
Oklahomahawk said:
Eh, sometimes yes sometimes no, I think the Christian groups who fund hospitals, clinics, research, etc., use the Christian moniker to get other religious groups to help with the funding. If they do it for any other reason I would have a problem with it. To be fair, this is much more a point about radical Muslims who only seem to want to blow up stuff and don't seem to be involved in any worthwhile philanthropy.
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This stuff is a completely different discussion. There are plenty of organizations out there doing great things without feeling the need to plaster their agenda in big letters on the side of a building. The same kind of argument you are making was used to defend the KKK and the Black Panthers. I anonymously give money on a regular basis to cancer research (and a few others). It has nothing to do with me being an atheist. My only agenda is to help fund research that will hopefully in turn help improve life. There are plenty of others out there like me (some Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist, I imagine) who would continue doing such things if tomorrow religion disappeared from existence.
 
thethe said:
I don't think its fair to lump all religion together. There is only one religion that is causing the deaths of thousands across the world in unspeakable fashion. I don't think the problem is the concept of a belief system but a specific set of beliefs that is the problem.
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That's not really true, but even if it currently was true, there was a time in the history of Islam where you could say the same thing about it vs Christianity. Doesn't mean Islam isn't a threat now and as such a threat even then. Same goes for Christianity now. And all the others. To borrow from my discussion with O-Hawk, all religions are perverted sub-groups of the same thing.
 
sturg33 said:
How familiar are you with Michael Scheuer? He is the former CIA chief that led the Usama Bin Landen unit. I've read a lot of his stuff over the years and my opinions as it relates to terrorism align more closely with his. He has said a lot of controversial things, many of which I don't agree with. But I think he is a lot more thoughtful regarding the Islamic threat than our media and government is. I believe our government (and other governments across the world), use the threat of terrorism as a means to expand its power.

Anyways, here's a brief wikipedia summary of Scheuer's view on the war on terror - which I agree with much of it:

Additionally, Scheuer wrote an entire book about our foreign called "Imperial Hubris", which criticized foreign policy mistakes while he was still supporting the OBL team (he got in trouble for this). Osama bin Laden acknowledged the book in a 2007 statement, suggesting that it revealed "the reasons for your losing the war against us."
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"Islamist and anti-American sentiment continue to grow around the world, and the bin Laden movement is aimed, not at killing or conquering Americans or reforming their internal political systems, but rather bankrupting them in order to reduce their worldwide influence and thereby liberate Muslims from the yoke of American political, military, and financial influence."

This is the exact thing we are trying to draw your attention to. For bin Laden and the others this is a global war. As such, it's a global threat. They want their opposition to just disappear so they can go back to their soft conquest of the Middle East and (at least in their plans) eventually the world.
 
Dalyn said:
That's not really true, but even if it currently was true, there was a time in the history of Islam where you could say the same thing about it vs Christianity. Doesn't mean Islam isn't a threat now and as such a threat even then. Same goes for Christianity now. And all the others. To borrow from my discussion with O-Hawk, all religions are perverted sub-groups of the same thing.
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But what is happening now is what is concerning me.
 
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