France attack...

BedellBrave said:
No, I wouldn't - not the ones I do.

How about the person who commits an evil, and let's for the moment bypass how we even determine what is evil - why it is evil - and why that judgment is in any sense to be universally binding - how about the person who commits an evil in the name of science, or in the name of his atheistic worldview, or his philosophical materialism - do we attribute that evil to the worldview or ideology or sense of superiority for holding that thought exclusively?
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^^^
 
BedellBrave said:
Ah, but you do. You may not call it evil.. You call it poisonous or that which must be stopped or negative. Don't kid yourself or play semantic games.
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I'm not kidding myself. Would I like to move past religion and all that is done in its name or to further its cause? Absolutely. But that's what works for me personally. I'm very aware that has little to no bearing on anything absolute. I don't think my point of view should be the only one out there. I think we need checks and balances to move through time at anything resembling accord. Religion in its current form does not allow for that. It swallows everything. It wants it all. I'm perfectly fine with your values and opinions having the same weight as my own and the same weight as the next person in line. But overall your religion claims ownership of morality and what it sees as evil and good is absolute, despite the hypocrisy of that absolute changing from time to time to better feed the beast. And, again overall, that is the fact with all religions. There is no room for my values or opinions in the world your kind want to create. And that's the problem that leads to so much religious strife and violence.
 
BedellBrave said:
Ah, but you do. You may not call it evil.. You call it poisonous or that which must be stopped or negative. Don't kid yourself or play semantic games.
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Just to clarify a misconception here - I don't think an illness (or disease or poison) is evil. It is what it is. Something that if left untreated threatens the life or health of the patient. If religion didn't threaten the "life" or "health" of everything outside of itself, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm personally fine with a cure or a treatment that allows the patient to live a life basically unaffected by the illness (or disease or poison).
 
Dalyn said:
I'm not kidding myself. Would I like to move past religion and all that is done in its name or to further its cause? Absolutely. But that's what works for me personally. I'm very aware that has little to no bearing on anything absolute. I don't think my point of view should be the only one out there. I think we need checks and balances to move through time at anything resembling accord. Religion in its current form does not allow for that. It swallows everything. It wants it all. I'm perfectly fine with your values and opinions having the same weight as my own and the same weight as the next person in line. But overall your religion claims ownership of morality and what it sees as evil and good is absolute, despite the hypocrisy of that absolute changing from time to time to better feed the beast. And, again overall, that is the fact with all religions. There is no room for my values or opinions in the world your kind want to create. And that's the problem that leads to so much religious strife and violence.
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Gosh been away for awhile and forgot how to quote.

Of all the years I have known you, I waited for this post, how you operate, your moral compass. Now I understand you.

GREAT POST!!!
 
Dalyn said:
But overall your religion claims ownership of morality and what it sees as evil and good is absolute, despite the hypocrisy of that absolute changing from time to time to better feed the beast. And, again overall, that is the fact with all religions. There is no room for my values or opinions in the world your kind want to create. And that's the problem that leads to so much religious strife and violence.
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This is something EVERY individual to look at themselves in this regard. I am not religious per say, but I believe in JC and what He had done for us, but that is the extent of it, but I wholeheartedly agree on how Dalyn stated. I ushered at a Catholic church (Christmas Eve) and the other ushers said, "you don't take communion". I told them in church quite frankly, I am not a Catholic, should it matter that I help the elderly, the ones in wheel chairs? You are understaffed and with all these men around surely someone would volunteered to help and they didn't. I did, stood at the door when it was 8 below zero, went outside without a jacket and helped them, not because I am Catholic but it was the right thing to do.

The way I answered I am not a Catholic told them to don't go any further. Respect my wishes and my ways and I will respect yours as long as you are nice to people.
 
Dalyn said:
I addressed this under the umbrella of us not determining what evil is and all, but now I would like to point out that you'll never hear me say a particular thing is evil. In fact, I made a point earlier of saying there is no right or wrong side. There are always social aspects in play that make some things appear "better" or "worse" in retrospect, "better" or "worse" than the social environment surrounding those actions when they happened might've made them look. Or--more to the point--what level of...animosity would've been required from the people who did these things.
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Help me here Dalyn. I've got medicine head right now - fighting the crud myself - so it's a bit hard for me to think clearly. Can you give me a direct answer? And for arguments sake - let's say the wrong is mass murder. Should we attribute the act of mass murder to an atheist's professed ideology or sense of superiority for holding his view, assuming of course he thinks those murders are committed for what he deems are right ends.
 
BedellBrave said:
Help me here Dalyn. I've got medicine head right now - fighting the crud myself - so it's a bit hard for me to think clearly. Can you give me a direct answer? And for arguments sake - let's say the wrong is mass murder. Should we attribute the act of mass murder to an atheist's professed ideology or sense of superiority for holding his view, assuming of course he thinks those murders are committed for what he deems are right ends.
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I already answered that on an individual level. But for argument's sake, let's say atheists start forming into a large group and somehow develop tenets around atheism. That's where I get off the boat, first of all, but that's not the point. After that, they start murdering people right and left to bring about an end to religion or whatever goals they've adopted for their new little religion. You better believe I would attribute it to their ideology and fight it just as hard as I fight religion as a whole.
 
But I think one thing you and others have such a hard time understanding about atheism is that it isn't a religion no matter how hard you try to convince people it is. It started as a slur against people whose belief in a god was in question. At some point, instead of letting the slur stand as an insult, a few of those people embraced the term. That's all it is. If some who have embraced the term also practice sex magic, it has nothing to do with the term. If some, such as myself, embrace the term and also have an interest in science, it has nothing to do with the term. I do nothing, except perhaps participate in these discussions, "in the name" of atheism. I don't belong or subscribe to any atheist forums or book clubs or discount outlets or newsletters or study groups or film clubs or youtube channels or softball teams or pottery classes, and the majority of my friends aren't atheists. If I'm ever in the room with another atheist, that fact is incidental and has never been the point of being in the room with them.
 
Dalyn said:
But I think one thing you and others have such a hard time understanding about atheism is that it isn't a religion no matter how hard you try to convince people it is. It started as a slur against people whose belief in a god was in question. At some point, instead of letting the slur stand as an insult, a few of those people embraced the term. That's all it is. If some who have embraced the term also practice sex magic, it has nothing to do with the term. If some, such as myself, embrace the term and also have an interest in science, it has nothing to do with the term. I do nothing, except perhaps participate in these discussions, "in the name" of atheism. I don't belong or subscribe to any atheist forums or book clubs or discount outlets or newsletters or study groups or film clubs or youtube channels or softball teams or pottery classes, and the majority of my friends aren't atheists. If I'm ever in the room with another atheist, that fact is incidental and has never been the point of being in the room with them.
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"Live and let live" is your motto.

If you know where I got that MOVIE quote from without googling, I will be amazed.
 
AerchAngel said:
"Live and let live" is your motto.

If you know where I got that MOVIE quote from without googling, I will be amazed.
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One of George Carlin's jokes (or hilarious tirades, whatever you want to call them) is what comes to mind. Something like, "Live and let live. That's my motto. Anyone who can't go along with that, take him outside and shoot the mother****er." :icon_biggrin:

But no movie comes to mind. Enlighten me!
 
Dalyn said:
One of George Carlin's jokes (or hilarious tirades, whatever you want to call them) is what comes to mind. Something like, "Live and let live. That's my motto. Anyone who can't go along with that, take him outside and shoot the mother****er." :icon_biggrin:

But no movie comes to mind. Enlighten me!
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Flash Gordon - 1982 version When the castaways were introduced to Ming the Merciless.
 
AerchAngel said:
Gosh been away for awhile and forgot how to quote.

Of all the years I have known you, I waited for this post, how you operate, your moral compass. Now I understand you.

GREAT POST!!!
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Someone etched YOU ARE HERE across the front of my moral compass with a pocket knife that had a broken tip cause they also used it to crack open a colony of oysters, and the needle spins around constantly like I'm trapped in the Bermuda Triangle.
 
Dalyn said:
I'm not kidding myself. Would I like to move past religion and all that is done in its name or to further its cause? Absolutely. But that's what works for me personally. I'm very aware that has little to no bearing on anything absolute. I don't think my point of view should be the only one out there. I think we need checks and balances to move through time at anything resembling accord. Religion in its current form does not allow for that. It swallows everything. It wants it all. I'm perfectly fine with your values and opinions having the same weight as my own and the same weight as the next person in line. But overall your religion claims ownership of morality and what it sees as evil and good is absolute, despite the hypocrisy of that absolute changing from time to time to better feed the beast. And, again overall, that is the fact with all religions. There is no room for my values or opinions in the world your kind want to create. And that's the problem that leads to so much religious strife and violence.
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If the crime is attributable to atheism then atheism then is also poisonous/dangerous and must be rooted out, by the way you responded earlier. Or you aren't being consistent.
 
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