Frank Wren

Knucksie said:
Remember a few years back at Scout when every draft pick was sacred and every prospect in the system was destined for future greatness.

Also tip of the Braves cap to you for helping to salvage some real discussion in this thread from the ravages of troll bait.
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Yep God forbid anyone questions anything ever.
 
JohnAdcox said:
That's not necessarily true. I'm one of those that thinks ones more piece can make a huge difference. I just think that ones more pieces is better made in July or so. So there are plenty of us who fall between those two extremes. By "plenty," I mean at least one, anyway.
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Ah the Mike Devereux faction.
 
nsacpi said:
Mostly it reflects a division between those who think an extra piece will make a big difference in our post-season fortunes and are impatient for that piece to be acquired, and those who take a longer view and want us to hold to our prospects so we can contend year in year out even with a mid-market payroll.
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There's a difference between unloading the farm system and going all in, and adequately filling needs. I'm sorry that you disagree, but Floyd, Gamel and an injured combo of Venters and EOF do NOT adequately fill ANY needs for this club.

Taking a flier on a player like Floyd is something a non-contender does in hopes of having a valuable trade chip at the deadline, or a player they can make a qualifying offer to before he hits the FA market the following year. It is NOT the move a team with WS aspirations makes when they need a solid innings eater to bolster a young rotation.

WS contenders also don't go into the season with ONE quality LHed guy in the BP to be abused until/if Venters and/or EOF come back. Now that the big addition to the rotation is guaranteed to start the season on the shelf, Wood is forced to the rotation to start the year and can't serve as the 2nd LHer in the BP.

The absolute best case scenario is Floyd joins the club just in time to limit innings for Beachy or Wood, and ends up pitching worse than both of them. Worst case scenario is he doesn't make it back or is ineffective, and Wren has to go out and trade for Maholm 2.0 at the deadline using the $4.5M he didn't pay Floyd as incentive.

So I ask you, what was the point in signing Floyd at all?

The Floyd deal simply makes no sense for this team at this time, and him coming back arounf the AS break to pitch 120 innings of average ball will not change that fact.

h
 
Knucksie said:
JS was aiming higher than just division titles. He already realized that the playoffs had become a crap shoot with the wild card. So he didn't win the jackpot, but he did step up to the table.

Like you said, those moves didn't cripple the org. What's really incredible, and the kids here do not appreciate it as much, is that they have not been in total rebuild mode since 1990. That's why certain OP's come across as so childish with their rants. Some of them have never experienced a 100-loss Braves team in their lifetimes.
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I think this is what lots of fans miss - having lived through the dark ages without ever losing hope, finally getting over the hump one more time after being so close so many times dealing value to get the chance is what it's all about. It's absolutely worth making a win now move that creates a 3-4 year window where you're a SERIOUS contender. Our scouting and development people are among the best in the business, and have consistently kept the pipeline stocked for over 20 years now - there's absolutely no reason to think that they won't continue to sign, draft, and develop kids that will eventually become major leaguers all of a sudden.

While I agree (to a point) with those that believe having an "Ace" doesn't guarantee you anything, I also completely believe that putting a Price (or even Samardzija) at the top of the current rotation for several years with the offensive talent we control would certainly make us one of the favorites for the foreseeable future.

I'm one of those who is more than willing to suffer through a few bad seasons if it happens not to work out.
 
nsacpi said:
I think this line of reasoning only works if the extension is below market. Otherwise why add prospects. The Phillies are finding out that guys like Lee and Hamels don't have that much trade value because of the size of their contracts. The value only exists to the extent the contracts are below market.

Sometimes the extension can even make things worse (see Uggla, Daniel). I'm not sure Price at 25M per year for years three through eight is a good idea for us. That kind of money is better allocated to locking up Heyward, Freeman & Simmons.
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Since every report we've read says that locking up Heyward, Freeman, and Simmons isn't in the cards Wren has a decision to make - assuming you're only going to have the core around for the first three seasons, does he believe that it would be easier to reload and rebuild around Price???

Time to roll the dice again and get a seat at the table to find out what these guys are capable of if you supply them the one piece you're missing.
 
Enscheff said:
Taking a flier on a player like Floyd is something a non-contender does in hopes of having a valuable trade chip at the deadline, or a player they can make a qualifying offer to before he hits the FA market the following year. It is NOT the move a team with WS aspirations makes when they need a solid innings eater to bolster a young rotation.
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As a matter of fact, contending teams do this sort of thing now and then. An example is the Red Sox signing 41 year old John Smoltz in January 2009, seven months after he had undergone season-ending shoulder surgery. They had a good young rotation (Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, DiceK, Penney), but wanted some veteran depth. They knew he wouldn't be ready until June or so. It seems to me the Floyd signing is very similar in conception.
 
Enscheff said:
There's a difference between unloading the farm system and going all in, and adequately filling needs. I'm sorry that you disagree, but Floyd, Gamel and an injured combo of Venters and EOF do NOT adequately fill ANY needs for this club.

Taking a flier on a player like Floyd is something a non-contender does in hopes of having a valuable trade chip at the deadline, or a player they can make a qualifying offer to before he hits the FA market the following year. It is NOT the move a team with WS aspirations makes when they need a solid innings eater to bolster a young rotation.

WS contenders also don't go into the season with ONE quality LHed guy in the BP to be abused until/if Venters and/or EOF come back. Now that the big addition to the rotation is guaranteed to start the season on the shelf, Wood is forced to the rotation to start the year and can't serve as the 2nd LHer in the BP.

The absolute best case scenario is Floyd joins the club just in time to limit innings for Beachy or Wood, and ends up pitching worse than both of them. Worst case scenario is he doesn't make it back or is ineffective, and Wren has to go out and trade for Maholm 2.0 at the deadline using the $4.5M he didn't pay Floyd as incentive.

So I ask you, what was the point in signing Floyd at all?

The Floyd deal simply makes no sense for this team at this time, and him coming back arounf the AS break to pitch 120 innings of average ball will not change that fact.
h
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Dude, you need to go root for the Yankees. Their two-deep has the shiny backups you like. Kinda like the Crimson Tide.

Here, it's exactly the kind of moves we need to make. The front line decisions are already made, we're just seeing if the alternate 2B, CF and sixth starter work out...while keeping our powder dry in hopes that someone among our splendid core will take our money long term.

As an aside, nsacpi, let's say Heyward, Simmons, and Freeman all want to wait on FA and play for the Yankees/Dodgers/Angels/Tigers. Now would you consider buying out arb/1-2 FA of Minor, Medlen, Teheran, Beachy, Wood?
 
Enscheff said:
There's a difference between unloading the farm system and going all in, and adequately filling needs. I'm sorry that you disagree, but Floyd, Gamel and an injured combo of Venters and EOF do NOT adequately fill ANY needs for this club.

Taking a flier on a player like Floyd is something a non-contender does in hopes of having a valuable trade chip at the deadline, or a player they can make a qualifying offer to before he hits the FA market the following year. It is NOT the move a team with WS aspirations makes when they need a solid innings eater to bolster a young rotation.

WS contenders also don't go into the season with ONE quality LHed guy in the BP to be abused until/if Venters and/or EOF come back. Now that the big addition to the rotation is guaranteed to start the season on the shelf, Wood is forced to the rotation to start the year and can't serve as the 2nd LHer in the BP.

The absolute best case scenario is Floyd joins the club just in time to limit innings for Beachy or Wood, and ends up pitching worse than both of them. Worst case scenario is he doesn't make it back or is ineffective, and Wren has to go out and trade for Maholm 2.0 at the deadline using the $4.5M he didn't pay Floyd as incentive.

So I ask you, what was the point in signing Floyd at all?

The Floyd deal simply makes no sense for this team at this time, and him coming back arounf the AS break to pitch 120 innings of average ball will not change that fact.
h
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This is why you simply can't look at individual trades or signings in a vaccuum. Floyd becomes an extremely important piece IF Wood is included in a deal for another SP. Surely most people here know better than to truly believe that Wren is "out" on Price or Samardzija if he can deal for one of them - he's never talked openly about what he's doing...he understands he loses all leverage if he does. I could care less how many times DOB or Bowman say it - I'll believe he isn't still trying to land one of them when they're traded to someone else. He's made no attempt to hide that the upgrade this team needs is at the top of the rotation and that he's doing everything within his power to address that.

Camp starts in February, not December.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Dude, you need to go root for the Yankees. Their two-deep has the shiny backups you like. Kinda like the Crimson Tide.

Here, it's exactly the kind of moves we need to make. The front line decisions are already made, we're just seeing if the alternate 2B, CF and sixth starter work out...while keeping our powder dry in hopes that someone among our splendid core will take our money long term.

As an aside, nsacpi, let's say Heyward, Simmons, and Freeman all want to wait on FA and play for the Yankees/Dodgers/Angels/Tigers. Now would you consider buying out arb/1-2 FA of Minor, Medlen, Teheran, Beachy, Wood?
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Good question. The thought has crossed my mind. There are circumstances where I would consider extending a pitcher. First, there would have to be no desirable position players willing to extend on team friendly terms. Second, if the farm system was going through a period where not much pitching was coming through the pipeline. And third, if the pitcher in question was willing to take a team friendly deal that wasn't too long (3-4 years).

My opposition to long-term deals for pitchers really springs from two considerations. One is riskiness, mainly related to the injury and attrition risks you see with pitchers. But the other one is specific to the Braves strength as organization when it comes to producing pitchers. If you have that as a strength then why take risks with long-term pitching contracts. I don't think we are as efficient when it comes to producing position talent. So when we do produce a group like Heyward, Freeman and Simmons, it makes sense to make more of an effort to keep them together for a while.

So in theory if Wren had an extra $25M magically appear in his budget, I would not be opposed to giving this to Price, Minor, Teheran or another pitcher. But first I would check to see if it would enable me to hold on to any of Heyward, Freeman, Simmons, or Justin Upton. If none of them wanted it, I would then check to see what was coming up the minor league pipeline. And if that looked iffy I would swallow hard and contact the agent of the pitcher in question.
 
Enscheff said:
There's a difference between unloading the farm system and going all in, and adequately filling needs. I'm sorry that you disagree, but Floyd, Gamel and an injured combo of Venters and EOF do NOT adequately fill ANY needs for this club.

Taking a flier on a player like Floyd is something a non-contender does in hopes of having a valuable trade chip at the deadline, or a player they can make a qualifying offer to before he hits the FA market the following year. It is NOT the move a team with WS aspirations makes when they need a solid innings eater to bolster a young rotation.

WS contenders also don't go into the season with ONE quality LHed guy in the BP to be abused until/if Venters and/or EOF come back. Now that the big addition to the rotation is guaranteed to start the season on the shelf, Wood is forced to the rotation to start the year and can't serve as the 2nd LHer in the BP.

The absolute best case scenario is Floyd joins the club just in time to limit innings for Beachy or Wood, and ends up pitching worse than both of them. Worst case scenario is he doesn't make it back or is ineffective, and Wren has to go out and trade for Maholm 2.0 at the deadline using the $4.5M he didn't pay Floyd as incentive.

So I ask you, what was the point in signing Floyd at all?

The Floyd deal simply makes no sense for this team at this time, and him coming back arounf the AS break to pitch 120 innings of average ball will not change that fact.
h
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Woah there Nostradomus. Good teams acquire players for what they will do, bad teams acquire players because of what they have done. Once upon a time Venters/O'Flaherty/Avilan were unproven lefties. None of them was a big time prospect. If Wren has proven one thing its that he and the scouts and put together a top notch pen. Lets give the team that has been no worse than 3rd in reliever ERA in the last 4 years a little benefit of the doubt. LOOGY's are not the most expensive thing in the world, if Wren determines we need another one then he will go get one like he did with Downs last year. Ryan Buchter could be the next reliever to step up for the Braves. He needs to get his walks down but he struck out 100 in 60 innings. Personally I thin EOF joins the team early in the year and does his usual thing. TJ surgery is easier for relievers because they dont need to stretch their arm out to pitch deep into games.

As for Floyd you are way off base. Floyd was signed to be the 6th starter that we know at some point we will need. If you think contending teams dont make signings like this you are crazy. In the Braves case they have money to spend on 1 year deals and cant make any multi-year deals because of the 2015 payroll crunch. Its hard to sign good players who are proven to one year deals. If Floyd doesnt work out we have other options like Hale/Martin/Graham. No they arent the sexiest option but they are better options that most teams have as their 7th-9th option. The rotation is looking far better than it was going into last year. The whole rotation had question marks like whether Medlen was a fluke, Minor was coming off a 4+ ERA, Teheran was bad at AAA the year before, Hudson was old, Beachy was coming off TJ surgery, and Wood was in A ball the year before. Now Medlen/Minor/Teheran is one of the best young trio of starters in the game and Wood looked to be just as good.
 
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