Frank Wren's Tenure

sturg33

sturg33

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A lot of discussion on this going on. We have the Wren haters, the Wren apologists, and the Wren realists.

What I find happening is that the Wren haters are so aggressive that many rational posters are forced to go out of their way to defend him, even though there was much to criticize. His overall tenure, in my opinion, was in between good and exceptional. He was put behind the 8-ball with the Tex trade and dug us out quite nicely over the years.

And while it's true our minor leagues were left barren toward the end, it's also true that our minor leaguers were used to fill the ML roster with good young talent (either by promotion or trades).

This may have been posted during the offseason, but I will post it again for the purpose of discussion. TalkingChop did a deep dive on his tenure.

LINK

Some highlights...

Bad decisions:

• Uggla’s extension

• Chris Johnson’s extension

• Releasing Juan Francisco

• Trading Teixeira for Casey Kotchman

• Signing Garret Anderson

Bad Outcomes:

• BJ Upton’s contract

• Derek Lowe’s contract

• Trading for Ryan Doumit

• DFA of Kelly Johnson

• Signing Chad Durbin

Good Decisions:

• Trading for Jair Jurrjens

• Trading for Omar Infante

• Signing Rafael Soriano

• Signing Matt Diaz

• Signing Eric O’Flaherty

• Signing David Ross

• Trading for Javier Vazquez

• Trading Javier Vazquez

• Trading for Adam LaRoche

• Signing Eric Hinske

• Trading for Rick Ankiel

• Signing Billy Wagner

• Trading for Derick Lee

• Trading for Dan Uggla

• Trading for Juan Francisco

• Trading for Paul Maholm and Reed Johnson

• Trading for Michael Bourn

• Trading for Justin Upton

• Extending core guys besides Johnson

• Signing Aaron Harang

• Signing Ervin Santana

Additionally, drafted/signed players included Simmons, Gattis, Wood, & Beachy. And current minor leaguers Davidson, Peraza, & Albies - whom I believe thethe referred to as all top 100 prospects. You can also remember that Gattis was responsible for Folty & Ruiz.

Lastly, he drafted many folks who were used in trades to improve our roster. Wren was exceptional with trades - and he used many minor league pieces to acquire folks who were overwhelming Major League upgrades.

Unfortunately, he missed badly on most first round picks.

So ignoring the "he was a dick" stuff... I believe looking at the overall picture of the Wren tenure, it's really difficult to say he didn't move the organization forward.
 
T obe fair, based on grumblings. Moves like getting kotchman back for Tex and DFAing KJ were prompted primarily by Bobby. IIRC Bobby wanted a MLB first baseman. I believe the Rays offered us better players for Tex, And Cox wouldn't utilize KJ in any other capacity. Prado beat him out for 2B, that's true, but why wasn't KJ put in LF? We kepty trotting out Garrett Anderson. WE could have avoided the Melky Cabrera fiasco, so on so forth.
 
I think Wren did a good job for the most part, and I think he moved the organization forward for most of his tenure. But I think he made some moves that really, really hurt us, and his last few years moves us backward.

I think he made a lot of good moves, and when we decided to let him go, it was a decision that needed to be made.

He did a very good job of finding guys lower on the FA market who could contribute; he made some very good trades; and he did a good job of finding guys either late in the draft or not in the draft at all (Gattis, Beachy, Medlen, etc). But he really made some terrible FA signings and did a bad job of finding the elite, high-ceiling type prospects. And that is ultimately what killed us and forced us to overhaul everything.

He left us without a lot of high-end talent in the system while also being crippled monetarily due to some of his signings. That's not a good place to be. We were stocked full of 'Wren guys' (the Terdoslaviches and Gattises and relievers) but not with the kind of guys who elevate a team into contender territory. I know people will disagree and say we had Heyward and Upton, but I think we can all at least agree at this point that both were questionable signs and Heyward probably wouldn't have been worth it anyway.
 
zitothebrave said:
T obe fair, based on grumblings. Moves like getting kotchman back for Tex and DFAing KJ were prompted primarily by Bobby. IIRC Bobby wanted a MLB first baseman. I believe the Rays offered us better players for Tex, And Cox wouldn't utilize KJ in any other capacity. Prado beat him out for 2B, that's true, but why wasn't KJ put in LF? We kepty trotting out Garrett Anderson. WE could have avoided the Melky Cabrera fiasco, so on so forth.
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This may be true, and that certainly hurt as well. I do think leaving Schuerholz and Bobby in charge doesn't necessarily mean everything will be better. But I like the strategy we're using right now - trade guys you probably won't re-sign, or guys who are flawed for as much high-ceiling talent as you can, then draft high-ceiling guys throughout the draft.

I like that strategy on principle much better than what we had been doing the last several years.
 
smootness said:
I think Wren did a good job for the most part, and I think he moved the organization forward for most of his tenure. But I think he made some moves that really, really hurt us, and his last few years moves us backward.

I think he made a lot of good moves, and when we decided to let him go, it was a decision that needed to be made.

He did a very good job of finding guys lower on the FA market who could contribute; he made some very good trades; and he did a good job of finding guys either late in the draft or not in the draft at all (Gattis, Beachy, Medlen, etc). But he really made some terrible FA signings and did a bad job of finding the elite, high-ceiling type prospects. And that is ultimately what killed us and forced us to overhaul everything.

He left us without a lot of high-end talent in the system while also being crippled monetarily due to some of his signings. That's not a good place to be. We were stocked full of 'Wren guys' (the Terdoslaviches and Gattises and relievers) but not with the kind of guys who elevate a team into contender territory. I know people will disagree and say we had Heyward and Upton, but I think we can all at least agree at this point that both were questionable signs and Heyward probably wouldn't have been worth it anyway.
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Well, Wren made a brilliant trade in acquiring Upton... and Upton gave us two really good years, and also netted us 4 solid prospects. Wren should get some credit for the 2015 Upton trade - bc Wren was responsible for Upton.

Additionally - Wren was responsible for Gattis - who gave us two good years and netted us Folty and Ruiz.

It's not as if Wren would have been unable to make similar trades that Hart made.

It should be noted that Wren had consistently low 1st round draft picks, or no 1st rounder at all. The highest pick he had was Minor, and that one has worked out (injuries are bad luck)

It should also be noted that Wren was the acquirer of Peraza, Albies, and Davidson - who I've been assured are all top 100 prospects.
 
smootness said:
This may be true, and that certainly hurt as well. I do think leaving Schuerholz and Bobby in charge doesn't necessarily mean everything will be better. But I like the strategy we're using right now - trade guys you probably won't re-sign, or guys who are flawed for as much high-ceiling talent as you can, then draft high-ceiling guys throughout the draft.

I like that strategy on principle much better than what we had been doing the last several years.
Click to expand...

Did we do that this year? Obviously Allard, but that was a no brainer... it seemed we took a lot of "safer picks" in the next several rounds - but I haven't looked as hard as others
 
Very good synopsis.

To an extent, he was just unlucky. Hanson, Jurrjens, Uggla, Upton, Beachy, Medlen were all extremely unusual outcomes - they just cratered. Extraordinarily quickly.

I know guys can argue they saw this one or that one coming (me with Hanson and Upton), but that's an amazing run of decisions that wound up on the worst 5% tail of the bell curve of predictable outcomes that, had a couple of them been in the 25th percentile would have made his tenure much better, and he probably still has a job.
 
In Wren's defense, he was left with a pretty bad system, late year JS did get some premium talent like Heyward, Freemna, Hanson, and a few others. But that was it. They also churned out a whole bunch of bums who didn't contribute to the minors leaving our upper minors bare. Wren's first job was addressing that issue. Look at Wren's last draft after finally we were restocked in A+ and higher, he used our first 2 picks on massively projectable high ceiling players in Davidson and Fulenchek.

Ignoring the quantity of picks for a second. Braves in the first 10 rounds took 8 college players. Last year they took 7. Granted they drafted more HS kids as well this year from having more picks (5 vs 3) but it's not like we had a drastic change in draft strategy. We're still a very smart organization. Wren's tenure had some draft failures. BUt then again so did the later years of JS's reign.
 
I wasn't out on Wren till the CJ signing. That put me over the edge.

Now with that in mind, I wouldn't say he was good or exceptional. I would say he was decent, but certainly not worth vehemently defending. I mean in the end there we were with a bottom of the league minor league system and a team that finished .500 with very little starting pitching, no money and key guys in walk years. What he did up until that point has relevancy, but the future didn't look all that bright.

In the end as I've been saying for a while now, I think it just all came down to the team just needing to make some kind of major change. Sometimes you just need a change to liven things up a bit.
 
weso1 said:
I wasn't out on Wren till the CJ signing. That put me over the edge.

Now with that in mind, I wouldn't say he was good or exceptional. I would say he was decent, but certainly not worth vehemently defending. I mean in the end there we were with a bottom of the league minor league system and a team that finished .500 with very little starting pitching, no money and key guys in walk years. What he did up until that point has relevancy, but the future didn't look all that bright.

In the end as I've been saying for a while now, I think it just all came down to the team just needing to make some kind of major change. Sometimes you just need a change to liven things up a bit.
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The team that lost two good starters to TJ in ST? Otherwise the 2013 rotation is Medlen, Minor, Teheran + mix & match Beachy, Wood, Hale, whoever.
 
His record was mixed, probably a little better than average.

But if the stuff about his being a micromanager who drove away good people is true, then I'm fine with his firing.

I do object to the rationale given by the front office. The whole going back to the Braves way and rebuilding the farm system spiel. The farm system has been incredibly productive. It was at low ebb mainly due to the large number of graduates to the major leagues. Some of them whizzed through the minors very fast. I find it amusing that the state of the farm system only became an issue after the major league team stumbled.

When I have some time I plan to do a study of how productive our drafts have been over the years. There is more involved than just counting the number of players who reached the majors. You have to look at how valuable those players were during the pre-free agency years. You have to look at where we were picking and how many early picks we had. And you have to have some sort of expected value attached to each pick and see how well the team did relative to that expected value.
 
Just for giggles.

Baltimore Sun

October 14, 1999

ATLANTA -- One week after being abruptly dismissed as Orioles general manager, Frank Wren was hired yesterday as the Atlanta Braves' vice president and assistant general manager.

Braves general manager John Schuerholz, who first discussed the position with Wren last Thursday, called his new hire's credentials "absolutely perfect for this position."

"Frank's the kind of guy who has excellent work habits, handles himself in a very professional fashion and is very well respected. And I think he feels the same way about our organization," Schuerholz said. "I think he felt a real attraction to working in the environment we have here."

Wren declined to comment about his turbulent 11-month experience in Baltimore, saying only, "I'm excited about going forward."

The Orioles cited Wren's inability to mesh with ownership, his abrupt dealings with a number of subordinates and ultimately his refusal to hold a Sept. 17 charter at Baltimore-Washington International Airport for third baseman Cal Ripken as contributing to his firing. However, Wren's unexpected ouster apparently did little to tarnish his reputation as one of the game's most astute young executives.

The third general manager to serve during the six-year stewardship of majority owner Peter Angelos, Wren moves from a club reputed for front-office turbulence to one lauded for its buttoned-down stability. Schuerholz has been in place since October 1990; Bobby Cox, Schuerholz's predecessor as GM, has been manager since May 1990.

Wren fills the vacancy created by the loss of Dean Taylor, whom the Milwaukee Brewers named general manager last month.

"I had a very close relationship with Dean Taylor. We served on several committees together and bounced stuff off each other for eight years and we're still very good friends," said Wren, who was assistant GM with the Braves' NL East rival Florida Marlins before being hired by the Orioles last Oct. 23. "When you play a club as often as we [Marlins] played the Braves, you have a lot of exposure to each other.

"I think it's a very comfortable situation for both parties."

Though Wren returns to the same position he held for seven years with the Marlins, he received the title of vice president that did not accompany his promotion with the Orioles. Schuerholz described Wren's responsibilities as greater than Taylor's because of his "broader" portfolio.

Wren began discussing the post with Schuerholz last Thursday, even before the Orioles released their nine-paragraph statement detailing his termination that night. Wren actually was fired the day before, Oct. 6.

Wren and Schuerholz had a series of phone conversations throughout the weekend. Wren interviewed Monday afternoon with Schuerholz and team president Stan Kasten in Atlanta, then returned to Baltimore that night.

"They made me feel like they wanted me to come," Wren said. "It's a meaningful position I thought would give my family and myself a sense of stability. That's an important factor."

Wren, 41, received a three-year contract; however, many within the industry believe he will receive another opportunity as general manager in the near future. Several other teams contacted Wren over the weekend, but Schuerholz finalized an agreement with no wasted action.

"I can't imagine anybody being more qualified to fill this position than Frank Wren," Schuerholz said. "I know him well. I've always admired him from across the table and admired the work he's done and the way he's handled himself."

Wren placed his Severna Park home on the market last Saturday and said he will officially assume his new post next week.
 
weso1 said:
I wasn't out on Wren till the CJ signing. That put me over the edge.

Now with that in mind, I wouldn't say he was good or exceptional. I would say he was decent, but certainly not worth vehemently defending. I mean in the end there we were with a bottom of the league minor league system and a team that finished .500 with very little starting pitching, no money and key guys in walk years. What he did up until that point has relevancy, but the future didn't look all that bright.

In the end as I've been saying for a while now, I think it just all came down to the team just needing to make some kind of major change. Sometimes you just need a change to liven things up a bit.
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This pretty well sums up my thoughts. I was all aboard the Wren train for a while. But he gave out some really bad contracts, and it became clear pretty quickly that our future wasn't all that bright.

I didn't turn on Wren after we got rid of him. I turned on him over a year period, and by the time we let him go, I was fully on board with it.
 
zitothebrave said:
In Wren's defense, he was left with a pretty bad system, late year JS did get some premium talent like Heyward, Freemna, Hanson, and a few others. But that was it. They also churned out a whole bunch of bums who didn't contribute to the minors leaving our upper minors bare. Wren's first job was addressing that issue. Look at Wren's last draft after finally we were restocked in A+ and higher, he used our first 2 picks on massively projectable high ceiling players in Davidson and Fulenchek.

Ignoring the quantity of picks for a second. Braves in the first 10 rounds took 8 college players. Last year they took 7. Granted they drafted more HS kids as well this year from having more picks (5 vs 3) but it's not like we had a drastic change in draft strategy. We're still a very smart organization. Wren's tenure had some draft failures. BUt then again so did the later years of JS's reign.
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You bring up some good points. But part of the new strategy is stockpiling picks, which Wren never did. So obviously taking 8 college players in 10 picks is different than taking 7 in 12 picks.

We did take high-upside guys early this year. Our first 4 picks were high-upside HS picks, and our 5th was a high-upside college pick. They may have been considered reaches by some rankings, but they're still high-upside picks.
 
Overall, I think Wren did a good job when it came to his core responsibilities. I would not have supported his firing based on his management of the MLB roster alone. I think he was an above average GM on that front, and probably one of the smartest and hardest-working guys in the game. I felt comfortable with him as the primary decision maker on the MLB roster. His Rule IV draft strategy seemed reasonable given the state of the team (perennial contender).

His downfall, as it turned out, was that he was not a very good leader of men. He was controlling and lost the respect of many in the organization. This had real consequences that had to be dealt with. In hindsight, I think he also handled the international market poorly . . . Cuba in particular. Put it all together and I was fine to see the Braves move on from Wren. He's a guy who may be best-suited to be the right-hand man for a GM that is a strong relationship-builder (like JS).

In time, I think the "Wren is terrible and Hart is great" mindset will dissipate. I'm pleased with what Hart has done so far, but the tear-down is almost always easier than the build-up.
 
Wren does get some credit for having guys like Upton and Gattis to be able to trade, no doubt. And yes, the trade to get Upton was brilliant; we took advantage of the D-Backs's questionable philosophy.

But the status of the system was no longer simply a result of calling guys up. Heyward and Freeman were up by 2011; they would have been up by 2014 no matter what. Simmons was a JUCO pick; he didn't really come up super early. Wood was a college pick. The system was at a low point in terms of talent with very little ready to graduate but also very little talent at the lower levels, either.

And sure, that became more evident when the team struggled. Because when you win 96 games, it's easy to say, eh, we have time to build the system up. Once you win 79 games, you become much more reliant on the talent in your system, and especially after a year where guys didn't really elevate their prospect status, we looked at our system and realized it was barren. If you're in that position, especially if you have concerns on re-signing the major league talent, it's time to make some moves.
 
Julio3000 said:
The team that lost two good starters to TJ in ST? Otherwise the 2013 rotation is Medlen, Minor, Teheran + mix & match Beachy, Wood, Hale, whoever.
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I'm talking about coming off the 2014 season when he was fired. They already knew they wouldn't have Medlen/Beachy till mid season at best in 2015. We had Teheran, Wood and Minor that we knew could be good for us with Minor still being a question mark. So they needed to work on the rotation while fixing a horrible offense all while having no money and very little in the way of prospects. Sure, we'd be better off had the injuries not happened, but they did and they happen to almost every team. You're going to lose some key guys. And if I recall I think Medlen and Beachy were both somewhat labeled as potential high injury risk pitchers, but I could be wrong on that.

Either way the team was in bad position to be legitimately competitive in 2015 and beyond, imo. If the Braves front office wasn't in sync with what to do in the future then I think a change needed to be made. My guess is that there probably was a fundamental disagreement between JS/McQuirk and Wren on where to take this organization going forward. I also think a change needed to be made because of declining fan interest.
 
I file Wrens tenure as could have been worse. There are a lot of worse GMs than Wren. If he didn't waste his first round picks on low ceiling college finesse pitchers he might have had a great run.
 
Wren did a lot of good things. In the end though, we had a bunch of guys set to become FAs and get paid big money and absolutely nothing on the farm, at any level, to replace them. And there wasn't a lot of pitching, either. It could've gotten real bad if we didn't sell off assets that were about to (probably) walk.
 
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