Frank Wren's Tenure

zitothebrave said:
The Uggla trade I was fine with, it was the immediate extension I was concerned with. I will give Wren credit, he was smart enough to stockpile right handed power before it became the highest premium in baseball. It's why we got such a big return for Gattis. But, Uggla was too risky, he was old and a 2B. 2B age fast (see Chase Utley, maybe the best 2B I've ever seen) ANd I don't think he bid against him self for the Beej. I think he overpaid to get him to sign. And I think the reason he did that was cause of the Lowe fiasco. If anyone forgets we wanted Burnett (I didn't want any of the starting pitchers from that FA, but the FO has money) and he was off the market so we went after Lowe and were forced to pay him 15M more than we wanted to because he preferred the Mets. After that fiasco Wren wanted to rush and get his guy. Of course he was burned becfause the Twins traded both Span and Revere and the CF market was oversaturated and Bourn signed for way less. It's a damned if you do damned if you don't kind of thing. If he waited and BOurn and Beej both signed. THe Twins could ask a fortune for Span. So on so forth. I don't hate him for the BJ signing. I didn't agree with it. I preferred Bourn or Span. But it made sense and wasn't a true massive overpay. 2M per year may be about right but when inflation and what not is factored in that's not really a big deal.

Chris Johnson extension I don't think was impulsive really. I think it was CJ wanted to stay a Brave and signed a contract that is below market for him. We basically traded our flexibility to cut him on a gamble that he would hit enough to make a ton on him or trade him for value. i'ts not a bad gamble.

I think we should have made a run for it in 2015. Traded CB and Sims for a pitcher, sign douchebag to backup Gattis, sign Rasmus, Keep Harang and go from there.

CF - Jason
RF - Justin
1B - Freddie
C - Gattis
LF - Rasmus (maybe switch him and Justin)
2B - TLS
SS - SImmons
3B - Johnson

What I like about that lineup is that you have 3 guys at the top who get on base, 2 of them have great power, then you have 2 pure mashers behind them, and then you hit the skids a bit. TLS should be a solid hitter. Simmons is a solid hitter, CJ when he's on is a solid hitter.

Rotation
Wood
Julio (though obviously this would stink this year)
Harang
Pitcher from trade
Perez

BTW I consider overall the positves we've seen from Perez to be better than the negatives from Julio in that scenario

So we clearly take a hit in a few areas. Obviously no Shelby hurts and Jace and Maybin have been pleasant surprises. But I do think that removing the scenery change, Jason would be performing better in ATL, Rasmus and Upton would be massive huge king kong upgrades over Mukaki and well Kelly Johnson and the turds we've been running out in LF. Gattis would smash our catcher production. So basically I see gains at LF (massive) RF (huge) and C (big enough) for maybe a slight loss in CF (Jason probably doesn't hit as well as Maybin has but is better in the field) and a big loss at 2B (TLS doesn't have the glove Peterson does) I think that more than overcomes our pitchign loss and that doesn't include the factoring in of keeping Kimbrel and Walden.

I do think we were a team who could have been in the playoffs with a few moves and ocne you're in the playoffs who knows what could happen. Wren probably would have been around this year too if he didn't make a move for Fredi's job. I think that stepped outside of JS and BObby's plan and for doing that he was ****canned.
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But you're putting together a team that could have been in the playoffs. And then next year you're screwed going forward.
 
smootness said:
But you're putting together a team that could have been in the playoffs. And then next year you're screwed going forward.
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I know that. But you don't think we'd be a much better team if that was our team? I'm sure we would be even given some things.
 
To me this year, this reset basically means we are going to build from within going forward. No more bringing in high priced mid-career guys to fill holes. After we get the foundation under this team they might bring in a free agent or two Personally, that was Frank's undoing in my book. His quick fix trade philosophy just didn't pan out. I also think they may have brought Heyward to the Majors a year too early. As an example look at Martin Prado. The Braves should have viewed him as either Chipper's heir apparent, the everyday 2nd baseman, or the everyday LFer. Instead he has bounced around for three seasons. Lowe was a panic move as was KK. The Uptons looked good at the time as did Uggla Not sure why Gattis was so prized. Since Heyward has gotten off to a bad start I could see the Braves giving him a reasonable one year offer to play LF to try and rebuild value.
 
Why would you put Heyward in LF on a team with Maybin and Markakis? He's better at RF than Markakis by a literal country mile, and is better in CF than Maybin.
 
zitothebrave said:
Why would you put Heyward in LF on a team with Maybin and Markakis? He's better at RF than Markakis by a literal country mile, and is better in CF than Maybin.
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Fair point, only reason I picked left is that is where the spot will be. Looking at the infield, I think three spots are set so 3B, LF, C are really all that is there to upgrade. Jace has won the 2B job hands down.
 
Runnin said:
If Uggla and Blow Job had been just average this thread wouldn't be here.
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There are a lot of things that would keep this thread from being here. If Wren had tried to keep Clark then the scouting department likely wouldn't have seen the attrition it did. Without those people leaving maybe Wren survives longer.

If Wren doesn't clash with Cox maybe he's still here. Underestimate Cox's influence in this organization at your own peril.

If he re-signs Hudson and the clubhouse doesn't lose his leadership, maybe that team doesn't crumble like it did.

The fact is that there were a lot of problems with the organization as a whole. Any one problem could easily be explained away. Free agents collapsing happens sometimes. Minor league talent goes up and down and we just graduated a bunch of guys. A lot of guys left to follow a departing scouting director. Etc.

The problem is when you stack all of these things on top of each other, it looks less like individual problems and more like an organization in disarray.
 
Wren wasn't as bad as the organization knobslobbers on the board make it seem, but I am dumbfounded by some of the deals being listed as "good"

Good Decisions:

• Signing Matt Diaz
• Signing Eric Hinske
• Trading for Rick Ankiel
• Trading for Derick Lee
• Trading for Dan Uggla
• Trading for Juan Francisco
• Trading for Paul Maholm and Reed Johnson
 
DOn't hate on Epic WInske.

ANd the Uggla trade was a good decision. It had a bad outcome but moving a super sub player like INfante for a starter like Uggla is great business move. Ankiel was a pretty brilliant trade, especially in the context of the other moves. WIth the Uggla trade (or even without and keeping Infante) Blanco wasn't gonna get much PT for the BRaves because he couldn't play CF all that well. Ankiel was very important in that stretch run, not necessarily for his bat, but for his glove. CF was a disaster for us. Melky was horrible, McLouth was horrible. Ankiel stopped the bleeding and provided some great defense getting one of those 2 jokers out of the lineup regularly. Come post season time they basically both were out of the lineup. ANd we got Farnsworth, who was very good for us in post season when Wagner wen down. It was a very net psitive trade.

Juan Francisco was a good trade except that we didn't keep him around. That was the issue. If we kept him and kept platooning him with CJ, we'd have been much better. Since we cut him I can't consider the trade good. I'd call it logically sound.
 
zitothebrave said:
DOn't hate on Epic WInske.

ANd the Uggla trade was a good decision. It had a bad outcome but moving a super sub player like INfante for a starter like Uggla is great business move. Ankiel was a pretty brilliant trade, especially in the context of the other moves. WIth the Uggla trade (or even without and keeping Infante) Blanco wasn't gonna get much PT for the BRaves because he couldn't play CF all that well. Ankiel was very important in that stretch run, not necessarily for his bat, but for his glove. CF was a disaster for us. Melky was horrible, McLouth was horrible. Ankiel stopped the bleeding and provided some great defense getting one of those 2 jokers out of the lineup regularly. Come post season time they basically both were out of the lineup. ANd we got Farnsworth, who was very good for us in post season when Wagner wen down. It was a very net psitive trade.

Juan Francisco was a good trade except that we didn't keep him around. That was the issue. If we kept him and kept platooning him with CJ, we'd have been much better. Since we cut him I can't consider the trade good. I'd call it logically sound.
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Also Derek Lee was very good for us while we were trying to make a run
 
zitothebrave said:
The Uggla trade I was fine with, it was the immediate extension I was concerned with. I will give Wren credit, he was smart enough to stockpile right handed power before it became the highest premium in baseball. It's why we got such a big return for Gattis. But, Uggla was too risky, he was old and a 2B. 2B age fast (see Chase Utley, maybe the best 2B I've ever seen) ANd I don't think he bid against him self for the Beej. I think he overpaid to get him to sign. And I think the reason he did that was cause of the Lowe fiasco. If anyone forgets we wanted Burnett (I didn't want any of the starting pitchers from that FA, but the FO has money) and he was off the market so we went after Lowe and were forced to pay him 15M more than we wanted to because he preferred the Mets. After that fiasco Wren wanted to rush and get his guy. Of course he was burned becfause the Twins traded both Span and Revere and the CF market was oversaturated and Bourn signed for way less. It's a damned if you do damned if you don't kind of thing. If he waited and BOurn and Beej both signed. THe Twins could ask a fortune for Span. So on so forth. I don't hate him for the BJ signing. I didn't agree with it. I preferred Bourn or Span. But it made sense and wasn't a true massive overpay. 2M per year may be about right but when inflation and what not is factored in that's not really a big deal.

Chris Johnson extension I don't think was impulsive really. I think it was CJ wanted to stay a Brave and signed a contract that is below market for him. We basically traded our flexibility to cut him on a gamble that he would hit enough to make a ton on him or trade him for value. i'ts not a bad gamble.

I think we should have made a run for it in 2015. Traded CB and Sims for a pitcher, sign douchebag to backup Gattis, sign Rasmus, Keep Harang and go from there.

CF - Jason

RF - Justin

1B - Freddie

C - Gattis

LF - Rasmus (maybe switch him and Justin)

2B - TLS

SS - SImmons

3B - Johnson

What I like about that lineup is that you have 3 guys at the top who get on base, 2 of them have great power, then you have 2 pure mashers behind them, and then you hit the skids a bit. TLS should be a solid hitter. Simmons is a solid hitter, CJ when he's on is a solid hitter.

Rotation

Wood

Julio (though obviously this would stink this year)

Harang

Pitcher from trade

Perez

BTW I consider overall the positves we've seen from Perez to be better than the negatives from Julio in that scenario

So we clearly take a hit in a few areas. Obviously no Shelby hurts and Jace and Maybin have been pleasant surprises. But I do think that removing the scenery change, Jason would be performing better in ATL, Rasmus and Upton would be massive huge king kong upgrades over Mukaki and well Kelly Johnson and the turds we've been running out in LF. Gattis would smash our catcher production. So basically I see gains at LF (massive) RF (huge) and C (big enough) for maybe a slight loss in CF (Jason probably doesn't hit as well as Maybin has but is better in the field) and a big loss at 2B (TLS doesn't have the glove Peterson does) I think that more than overcomes our pitchign loss and that doesn't include the factoring in of keeping Kimbrel and Walden.

I do think we were a team who could have been in the playoffs with a few moves and ocne you're in the playoffs who knows what could happen. Wren probably would have been around this year too if he didn't make a move for Fredi's job. I think that stepped outside of JS and BObby's plan and for doing that he was ****canned.
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Peraza would have likely been the 2B by now, seeing Mr. Ouch is on the DL once again.

I neglected to mention that I gave Wren the benefit of the doubt on some things. He gets charged with meddling with the on-field product too much and I don't know if that's true or not, but I always got the impression the Schuerholz was doing this passive/aggressive thing looking over Wren's shoulder. That couldn't have been easy. Schuerholz' last couple of years were a mess and I still think he gets way too much leeway in assessing what was handed over the Wren, especially given the payroll constraints.
 
zitothebrave said:
The Uggla trade I was fine with, it was the immediate extension I was concerned with. I will give Wren credit, he was smart enough to stockpile right handed power before it became the highest premium in baseball. It's why we got such a big return for Gattis. But, Uggla was too risky, he was old and a 2B. 2B age fast (see Chase Utley, maybe the best 2B I've ever seen) ANd I don't think he bid against him self for the Beej. I think he overpaid to get him to sign. And I think the reason he did that was cause of the Lowe fiasco. If anyone forgets we wanted Burnett (I didn't want any of the starting pitchers from that FA, but the FO has money) and he was off the market so we went after Lowe and were forced to pay him 15M more than we wanted to because he preferred the Mets. After that fiasco Wren wanted to rush and get his guy. Of course he was burned becfause the Twins traded both Span and Revere and the CF market was oversaturated and Bourn signed for way less. It's a damned if you do damned if you don't kind of thing. If he waited and BOurn and Beej both signed. THe Twins could ask a fortune for Span. So on so forth. I don't hate him for the BJ signing. I didn't agree with it. I preferred Bourn or Span. But it made sense and wasn't a true massive overpay. 2M per year may be about right but when inflation and what not is factored in that's not really a big deal.

Chris Johnson extension I don't think was impulsive really. I think it was CJ wanted to stay a Brave and signed a contract that is below market for him. We basically traded our flexibility to cut him on a gamble that he would hit enough to make a ton on him or trade him for value. i'ts not a bad gamble.

I think we should have made a run for it in 2015. Traded CB and Sims for a pitcher, sign douchebag to backup Gattis, sign Rasmus, Keep Harang and go from there.

CF - Jason

RF - Justin

1B - Freddie

C - Gattis

LF - Rasmus (maybe switch him and Justin)

2B - TLS

SS - SImmons

3B - Johnson

What I like about that lineup is that you have 3 guys at the top who get on base, 2 of them have great power, then you have 2 pure mashers behind them, and then you hit the skids a bit. TLS should be a solid hitter. Simmons is a solid hitter, CJ when he's on is a solid hitter.

Rotation

Wood

Julio (though obviously this would stink this year)

Harang

Pitcher from trade

Perez

BTW I consider overall the positves we've seen from Perez to be better than the negatives from Julio in that scenario

So we clearly take a hit in a few areas. Obviously no Shelby hurts and Jace and Maybin have been pleasant surprises. But I do think that removing the scenery change, Jason would be performing better in ATL, Rasmus and Upton would be massive huge king kong upgrades over Mukaki and well Kelly Johnson and the turds we've been running out in LF. Gattis would smash our catcher production. So basically I see gains at LF (massive) RF (huge) and C (big enough) for maybe a slight loss in CF (Jason probably doesn't hit as well as Maybin has but is better in the field) and a big loss at 2B (TLS doesn't have the glove Peterson does) I think that more than overcomes our pitchign loss and that doesn't include the factoring in of keeping Kimbrel and Walden.

I do think we were a team who could have been in the playoffs with a few moves and ocne you're in the playoffs who knows what could happen. Wren probably would have been around this year too if he didn't make a move for Fredi's job. I think that stepped outside of JS and BObby's plan and for doing that he was ****canned.
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I just don't think there's that much of a difference between the team we have now and the team you've created in your brain. I would argue the team we have now is better. I'd rather have the team we have now and the much better outlook for the future.
 
Ankiel was not a good defensive player and didn't hit well for us. Blanco was a better defender in CF than Ankiel was (worse case you could say they were even) Oh, and Blanco was simply a better player overall.

I was fine with the Uggla trade at the time, but in retrospect (which the trades are judged on in this case), it was a bad deal.

Derreck Lee was a good deal, I agree. Accidently left him in.
 
weso1 said:
I just don't think there's that much of a difference between the team we have now and the team you've created in your brain. I would argue the team we have now is better. I'd rather have the team we have now and the much better outlook for the future.
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So we add 3 power bats, and we're not better than we are now? Even if Heyward and Maybin remain at their current levels. Same thing with Mukaki and Peterson, that's a better team. You're right the outlook is totally different. And that's fine, but as a team we're so much better. Justin would be huge over Markakis, Rasmus would be gigantic over our LF fiasco. Heyward vs Maybin is a debate but over a full season I bet on Heyward 10 times out of 10. Maybin hasn't proven he can play 150 games. Only spot we lose at in the infield is 2B and I think the 2B difference is more than made up at C. We lose some in the pitching department, but I don't think we make the Cahill trade if we're not going to rebuild and we opt to keep Harang instead and that's a big net positive. Big enough to wipe out Miller IMO. Then after that you just have what Folty added to us. Which I think is net eliminated by the trade of Bethancourt and Sims. Then you add that instead of the current Grilli and a bunch of mehs in the pen, we have Kimbrel and Walden instead? So better pen, much better lineup, and maybe a slightly worse rotation. How is that not "much of a difference"?
 
gilesfan said:
Ankiel was not a good defensive player and didn't hit well for us. Blanco was a better defender in CF than Ankiel was (worse case you could say they were even) Oh, and Blanco was simply a better player overall.

I was fine with the Uggla trade at the time, but in retrospect (which the trades are judged on in this case), it was a bad deal.

Derreck Lee was a good deal, I agree. Accidently left him in.
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Ankiel was good for us. Sample size is an issue I know that but he made many great catches and throws that Blanco cannot make. Blanco has speed which is his asset but he couldn't read the ball off the bat if he needed to pass a final.
 
zitothebrave said:
I know that. But you don't think we'd be a much better team if that was our team? I'm sure we would be even given some things.
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I don't think it matters how good we would have been if it meant we would be screwed after this year. No single year is worth that.
 
smootness said:
I don't think it matters how good we would have been if it meant we would be screwed after this year. No single year is worth that.
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We would have. But I'm a firm believer in a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush. Rather win now than have a better prospect of winning later. Imagine if enough of our prospects fail. Are we better off? Baseball as a mid-market team you have small windows to win. You need to ustilize them while you can. I think the Braves are hoping to be the Rays, but the Rays sucked for a really long time to build up a stable of MLB talent. And when we extended Julio we eliminated ourselves from that ocmparison cause they would have traded Julio.
 
Harang - 1.9 WAR
Justin - 2.2 WAR
Rasmus - 1.0 WAR
Heyward - .9 WAR
Kimbrel - .1 WAR
Gattis - .2 WAR
=6.3 WAR

vs.

Miller - 3.1 WAR
Maybin - .7 WAR
Mukaki - 1.2 WAR
Peterson - 1.3 WAR
Gomes/KJ - .3 WAR (kind of hard to figure because Fredi, but I think a straight platoon here would could net us .5 WAR)
Catcher - 0 WAR
= 6.6 WAR

Sure you can make some assumptions about changing scenery and all that, but Upton changed scenery just like the rest of the guys and his having a good season. I would argue that the player most likely to decline dramatically is Harang. I could also argue that we could have just signed Harang anyway. I mean you could have just added him to the team we had now without impacting our future in any way.

So really in your scenario I would just say we should have signed Harang. Had we added him to the team we have right now, well now there's the significant upgrade. As for the bullpen. Had we truly tried to be competitive we could have traded for Papelbon without impacting the future.

So had we added both of those guys we'd have added 3.0 WAR on top of the 6.6 WAR that was already added.

So now it looks like this:

Current team with weso1's additions and good farm system: 9.6 WAR

Zito's team with horrible farm system: 6.3 WAR
 
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