Gattis tearing it up at AAA

gilesfan said:
They gave him a chance and he failed. Instead of blaming the organization, why not blame the player?
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"They gave him a chance and he failed."

Seriously??? 15 HRs and 47 RBI in almost exactly one half season of ABs against MLB pitching the first time he has ever been exposed to it while getting sporadic playing time is a "failure"???

God forbid he got regular playing time with a chance to make adjustments over the course of a few ABs in a row, much less 2-3 games played per week rather than 1-2 pinch hit ABs per week in pressure situations. If that had happened he'd have been an utter embarassment by your standards (22-25 HRs and 65 RBI out of a part-time player is definitely not what any contender would like to have available at the drop of a hat).

Numbers guys can make these things fit whenever the argument they're making calls for it, but I'd venture a guess that even the most numerically-inclined folks around these parts wouldn't come close to calling Gattis a "failure" - certainly not at this point. Rather I'd bet that they'd mention sample size and lack of REGULAR playing time as the cause of Evan's struggles.

Did he "fail" to win the ROY following a sizzling start, sure. Did that have as much to do with a lack of opportunity to see and make adjustments to the adjustments the Pitchers he faced had made? Absolutely.
 
clvclv said:
"They gave him a chance and he failed."

Seriously??? 15 HRs and 47 RBI in almost exactly one half season of ABs against MLB pitching the first time he has ever been exposed to it while getting sporadic playing time is a "failure"???

God forbid he got regular playing time with a chance to make adjustments over the course of a few ABs in a row, much less 2-3 games played per week rather than 1-2 pinch hit ABs per week in pressure situations. If that had happened he'd have been an utter embarassment by your standards (22-25 HRs and 65 RBI out of a part-time player is definitely not what any contender would like to have available at the drop of a hat).

Numbers guys can make these things fit whenever the argument they're making calls for it, but I'd venture a guess that even the most numerically-inclined folks around these parts wouldn't come close to calling Gattis a "failure" - certainly not at this point. Rather I'd bet that they'd mention sample size and lack of REGULAR playing time as the cause of Evan's struggles.

Did he "fail" to win the ROY following a sizzling start, sure. Did that have as much to do with a lack of opportunity to see and make adjustments to the adjustments the Pitchers he faced had made? Absolutely.
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Got to agree!!! Gattis has not failed by any stretch. A baseball season is a marathon. Every player, even the most consistent have good and bad stretches. The ones who get 500-600 AB's make adjustments. The ones who get 100-200 AB's are more prone to ups and downs because they don't get the chance to adjust. I am pretty confident that with more consistent AB's we would have seen him figure it out a bit. Unfortunately, for a part time player on a deep team, you don't have the luxury of letting all of them work through the adjustments. Guys like Uggla and BJ are going to get a more patient approach because they have a track record (not saying I always agree). They are not as patient with a guy like Gattis.

I think he has a bright future. He will adjust. This off-season will, in my opinion bring huge progress now that he has had a season in the bigs to see what it is all about, and where his weaknesses are.
 
clvclv said:
"They gave him a chance and he failed."

Seriously??? 15 HRs and 47 RBI in almost exactly one half season of ABs against MLB pitching the first time he has ever been exposed to it while getting sporadic playing time is a "failure"???

God forbid he got regular playing time with a chance to make adjustments over the course of a few ABs in a row, much less 2-3 games played per week rather than 1-2 pinch hit ABs per week in pressure situations. If that had happened he'd have been an utter embarassment by your standards (22-25 HRs and 65 RBI out of a part-time player is definitely not what any contender would like to have available at the drop of a hat).

Numbers guys can make these things fit whenever the argument they're making calls for it, but I'd venture a guess that even the most numerically-inclined folks around these parts wouldn't come close to calling Gattis a "failure" - certainly not at this point. Rather I'd bet that they'd mention sample size and lack of REGULAR playing time as the cause of Evan's struggles.

Did he "fail" to win the ROY following a sizzling start, sure. Did that have as much to do with a lack of opportunity to see and make adjustments to the adjustments the Pitchers he faced had made? Absolutely.
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Those are just excuses. He didn't get sporatic at bats until August after struggling.
 
gilesfan said:
Those are just excuses. He didn't get sporatic at bats until August after struggling.
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Now that is just not true for even a stats guy like you. Things cooled substantially for Gattis and playing time diminished the moment McCann came off the DL.
 
gilesfan said:
Those are just excuses. He didn't get sporatic at bats until August after struggling.
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Evan Gattis had 282 PA, 84 in April, 69 in May, so 54.3% of his PA came in the first 2 months. With a healthy though not insane drop off after Mac came back. Though I believe May (without looking it up) was the month that Heyward missed time.
 
Even when Evan was going good you could see he had trouble with breaking pitches. Once the league found that out they started spinning balls up there, then making him chase on fastballs out of the zone since he was over aggressive when he saw something straight.

Having said that, when they benched him he should have went down to AAA. There was no reason to keep him idle on the MLB bench with a huge lead in the division. He should have been getting everyday ABs in AAA rather than rotting on the bench. Why keep him on the MLB roster and then start guys like Terdo and EJ over him? It just makes no sense.
 
stpeteirish said:
Think we're stuck with Laird, he's on a two year deal. And he's OK in the role he was signed for, back up catcher. If you carry Gattis you can carry three catchers since Gattis can play in the field. So Bethancourt could conceivable be the #1 catcher with Gattis and Laird in reserve.
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Right. I just don't think Gattis can handle even a little time playing multiple positions. But I still agree about Laird and such.
 
clvclv said:
"They gave him a chance and he failed."

Seriously??? 15 HRs and 47 RBI in almost exactly one half season of ABs against MLB pitching the first time he has ever been exposed to it while getting sporadic playing time is a "failure"???

God forbid he got regular playing time with a chance to make adjustments over the course of a few ABs in a row, much less 2-3 games played per week rather than 1-2 pinch hit ABs per week in pressure situations. If that had happened he'd have been an utter embarassment by your standards (22-25 HRs and 65 RBI out of a part-time player is definitely not what any contender would like to have available at the drop of a hat).

Numbers guys can make these things fit whenever the argument they're making calls for it, but I'd venture a guess that even the most numerically-inclined folks around these parts wouldn't come close to calling Gattis a "failure" - certainly not at this point. Rather I'd bet that they'd mention sample size and lack of REGULAR playing time as the cause of Evan's struggles.

Did he "fail" to win the ROY following a sizzling start, sure. Did that have as much to do with a lack of opportunity to see and make adjustments to the adjustments the Pitchers he faced had made? Absolutely.
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Thanks for a well thought out post. It will surely annoy the Gattis bashers on this forum.
 
gilesfan said:
Those are just excuses. He didn't get sporatic at bats until August after struggling.
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Player A - 117 GP, 425 ABs, .285/.330/.518/.848, 21 HR, 71 RBI

Player B - 127 GP, 495 ABs, .259/.315/.426/.741, 17 HR, 74 RBI

I'd ask you to provide some sort of tangible evidence that given the same number of ABs as those two players that Gattis wouldn't have given the Braves AT LEAST comparable results had he gotten the opportunity. Again, TANGIBLE EVIDENCE - not misspelled words and your OPINION that those are excuses. Show me the numbers if you can. Then tell me which player is more valuable (especially since those charts are always reliable when they adjust for position differences) given that Player A is Marlon Byrd (so make sure to factor in the cost of either Dilson Herrera or Vic Black in your formula) and that player B is Justin Morneau (factoring in whomever the PTBNL winds up being) AND their salaries plus the fact that neither is under team control beyond next month. Gattis can play 2 of the 5 positions those two play defensively, and his ability to catch offsets any defensive deficiencies between Byrd's ability to play a below-average CF and Morneau's ability to play an average (at best) 1B.

Come on mouthpiece...give us something other than your blowhard opinion.
 
What are you asking me to do? Tell you that Gattis has been as good as Morneau, who's been awful most of the year? To tell you that Gattis has been as good as Byrd (he has not).

Are you looking for numbers? Gattis has 282 PA and a line of .238/.298/.469. That speaks for itself. You can make all the excuses you can conjure up, but those are his numbers. Ever since the 2nd month of the season, he's been the easiest out on the team. Maybe next year he can recover at age 28.
 
Enscheff said:
Even when Evan was going good you could see he had trouble with breaking pitches. Once the league found that out they started spinning balls up there, then making him chase on fastballs out of the zone since he was over aggressive when he saw something straight.

Having said that, when they benched him he should have went down to AAA. There was no reason to keep him idle on the MLB bench with a huge lead in the division. He should have been getting everyday ABs in AAA rather than rotting on the bench. Why keep him on the MLB roster and then start guys like Terdo and EJ over him? It just makes no sense.
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This is exactly why I believe he was mishandled. It was clear he was lost but he wasn't going to find himself sitting on the bench and didn't deserve playing time in Atlanta. He should have been in Gwinnett by the middle of jUly.
 
There is no way Gattis has failed. Failed to continue his early season success sure, but lets not forget we are talking about the least offensive position in the majors. Gattis's OPS would rank 12th in the majors for catchers with 200 or more plate apperances. Right behind our old buddy Salty. Gattis at worst is a league average catcher. For league minimum thats pretty good. Gattis would be the starting catcher on atleast half the teams in the majors. I wont like losing McCann but we could do far worse than Gattis. Laird I think would not be hard to trade. He has had a good year despite limited at bats and makes only 1.5 million next year. He couldnt be traded mid year of the first year of a multi year deal without his consent but he can in the offseason. I think a lot of teams would take him, not give up much for him but I think there would be teams willing to take him and all of his salary.
 
cajunrevenge said:
There is no way Gattis has failed. Failed to continue his early season success sure, but lets not forget we are talking about the least offensive position in the majors. Gattis's OPS would rank 12th in the majors for catchers with 200 or more plate apperances. Right behind our old buddy Salty. Gattis at worst is a league average catcher. For league minimum thats pretty good. Gattis would be the starting catcher on atleast half the teams in the majors. I wont like losing McCann but we could do far worse than Gattis. Laird I think would not be hard to trade. He has had a good year despite limited at bats and makes only 1.5 million next year. He couldnt be traded mid year of the first year of a multi year deal without his consent but he can in the offseason. I think a lot of teams would take him, not give up much for him but I think there would be teams willing to take him and all of his salary.
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That assumes he would be able to maintain his current OPS level by catching everyday instead of getting breaks and playing in LF.
 
gilesfan said:
What are you asking me to do? Tell you that Gattis has been as good as Morneau, who's been awful most of the year? To tell you that Gattis has been as good as Byrd (he has not).

Are you looking for numbers? Gattis has 282 PA and a line of .238/.298/.469. That speaks for itself. You can make all the excuses you can conjure up, but those are his numbers. Ever since the 2nd month of the season, he's been the easiest out on the team. Maybe next year he can recover at age 28.
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Hello??? Hello???

Hello??? Hello???
 
gilesfan said:
What are you asking me to do? Tell you that Gattis has been as good as Morneau, who's been awful most of the year? To tell you that Gattis has been as good as Byrd (he has not).

Are you looking for numbers? Gattis has 282 PA and a line of .238/.298/.469. That speaks for itself. You can make all the excuses you can conjure up, but those are his numbers. Ever since the 2nd month of the season, he's been the easiest out on the team. Maybe next year he can recover at age 28.
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Fairly certain BJ Upton would be pretty upset at this assertion.
 
gilesfan said:
What are you asking me to do? Tell you that Gattis has been as good as Morneau, who's been awful most of the year? To tell you that Gattis has been as good as Byrd (he has not).

Are you looking for numbers? Gattis has 282 PA and a line of .238/.298/.469. That speaks for itself. You can make all the excuses you can conjure up, but those are his numbers. Ever since the 2nd month of the season, he's been the easiest out on the team. Maybe next year he can recover at age 28.
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Pittsburgh traded for Morneau because they felt he'd make a difference. His numbers were AT BEST marginally better than Gattis' numbers when he was getting regular ABs.

Evan was sent to Gwinnett in the hopes he'd see something other than breaking balls that never got within 10" of the plate and fastballs that were below his shoulders.

He saw a few over the weekend, and adjusted pretty well.

Show me some numbers mouthpiece. The number I saw counted tonight and amazingly didn't reflect your views.
 
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