Gattis Traded To Astros (pg. 13)
- Thread starter clvclv
- Start date
The goal is to win a world series and in my humble opinion that was not possible with this team prior ot the trades. Again, just a difference in opinion.
UNCBlue012
Well-known member
Well, isn't that pretty much all of the minor league far systems? You don't just have a player that is AUTOMATICALLY going to be great. You expect it, but never know. It's not like we were going to trade JUP for a bunch of needed pieces. It doesn't work that way. This move was needed and a very good one. As have a lot of them this offseason.
ramadon101
Danville Rookie
Posted today-- and closely followed by Baseball Primer and others-- Hart is #23 on all time top GMs and his experience in tearing down and building back up is obviously relevant to our current situation:
https://pursuitofpennants.wordpress.com/2015/01/14/23-john-hart/
I'm sorry- I don't blindly praise the FO's moves - and, in fact, have been critical on at least one this winter (the JUp trade because I didn't like the centerpiece being a high-risk (albeit high reward) piece like Fried and would have rather gotten Renfroe with one lesser prospect instead of a bigger package but I don't know if that was ever on the table - but I choose to believe that Hart and JC have more insight and evaluation tools than you and I do. Someone said Hart's biggest accomplishment this winter is re-building the scouting staff and player evaluation team- I agree with that and he's obviously relying on his lieutenants to identify and pick those prospects who they believe have the highest upside in our system. Obviously time will tell, but I know every move was done with reason and purpose. I'm not saying we have to have consensus and sing kumbaya on every personnel decision but I think the ascot clutching as I believe Jpx or Julio so aptly coined on the "Anti-Hart" camp also needs to curb the practice of stating opinions as facts. I can tell you that the Braves do not view Shelby Miller as only a "middle of rotation" guy- they view him as a potential TOR under McDowell. Projection is important here in addition to the stats alone.
/off the soapbox
bravebonebook
Spring Training Invitee
Sorry, I don't agree. 'Borderline playoff team' is being really generous! I'm afraid the team showed their level last year. And they lost Santana. I could see the same team repeating and doing just the same as last year. Plus the Fish and Mets look like they will be improved so a Wildcard would be harder and what in the world made us stronger than the Nationals in 2015 then 2014?
And IF the team did grab a wildcard spot, what then? Heyward and JUp were still going to go elsewhere for bigger bucks. Our farm system was still going to be bottom of the barrel in MLB. There is no guarantee of BJ or CJ inproving...
No, for me, it's better to get who you can and build towards the future. It worked in the late eighties, why not again??
I'd settle for the ability to win just one playoff series.
sturg33
I
Maybe we'll have that opportunity by 2020
rico43
<B>Director of Minor League Reports</B>
Some analysis from Crawford Boxes site:
Michael Foltynewicz
Michael "Folty" Foltynewicz (pronounced "FOAL-ta-NEV-itch") is easily the headline name in this deal. The #57 prospect in baseball, according to MLB.com, Folty made headlines for his triple-digit fastball, which he pairs with a nice changeup and a still-developing curveball.
Folty made his MLB debut in the bullpen in 2014, throwing 18.2 innings with a 4.09 ERA and a 16.7% strikeout rate. His minor league strikeout rates have been consistently good - nearly a batter an inning in Oklahoma City in 2014 - but control problems have plagued him for his entire career.
Foltynewicz looked to be a solid contender for the Astros' 2015 rotation, as he's considered largely major league-ready, though some still believe he may ultimately find a home as a late-inning reliever, where his fastball velocity will play up.
Rio Ruiz
Ruiz was the most highly-touted Astros third base prospect after being drafted in the fourth round in 2012 - that is, until the acquisitions of Colin Moran and J.D. Davis in 2014. In Lancaster (a very offense-friendly environment) in 2014, Ruiz continued to show his trademark plate discpline and hitting ability, including his power potential, while playing a very good third base.
However, concerns have surfaced among some of my scouting contacts about his inability to go the other way. He's been a slow burner over his career - he missed most of his senior season in high school with a blood clot and got off to a slow start in professional baseball - but he's put together a nice career, even earning an invite to the Arizona Fall League in 2014, where he slashed just .187/.292/.227.
He's very much a ceiling prospect in a system with two options - Moran and Ruiz - who may have made him dispensable. But he's still a few months away from his twenty-first birthday and could already be ready for the high minors. That's no small accomplishment.
Andrew Thurman
Thurman, the Friday-night starter at UC Irvine, was drafted in the second round in 2013. An inning-eating build, a mid-nineties fastball, and two good breaking pitches had fans anxious to watch his development. Still, it surprised some to see him remain in Single-A ball all season in 2014, where he accrued a 5.38 ERA over 115 innings.
Like the other two prospects en route to Atlanta, Thurman has the potential to be a very solid player, but in a system teeming with C and C+ pitching prospects, he failed to separate himself from the pack. The 6'3" righty is the least-flashy name in the trade, and yet could end up being the crown of it, when all is said and done.
Analysis
Losing Foltynewicz, Ruiz, and Thurman is a blow to the Astros' system, without a doubt, but not necessarily a crippling one. It immediately gives the Braves one major league-ready flamethrower in Folty, plus a very promising young infield prospect and an innings-eater type in Thurman, who could steadily move up in their system, and may even land in their top twenty preseason prospects list.
For the Astros, a glut of pitching depth in the minors absorbs the impact of the loss of Thurman and Foltynewicz, though the latter's impact on the 2015 roster will almost certainly be felt. Ruiz may be the hardest loss, as he's developed a strong following among prospectphiles, and for good reason.
Michael Foltynewicz
Michael "Folty" Foltynewicz (pronounced "FOAL-ta-NEV-itch") is easily the headline name in this deal. The #57 prospect in baseball, according to MLB.com, Folty made headlines for his triple-digit fastball, which he pairs with a nice changeup and a still-developing curveball.
Folty made his MLB debut in the bullpen in 2014, throwing 18.2 innings with a 4.09 ERA and a 16.7% strikeout rate. His minor league strikeout rates have been consistently good - nearly a batter an inning in Oklahoma City in 2014 - but control problems have plagued him for his entire career.
Foltynewicz looked to be a solid contender for the Astros' 2015 rotation, as he's considered largely major league-ready, though some still believe he may ultimately find a home as a late-inning reliever, where his fastball velocity will play up.
Rio Ruiz
Ruiz was the most highly-touted Astros third base prospect after being drafted in the fourth round in 2012 - that is, until the acquisitions of Colin Moran and J.D. Davis in 2014. In Lancaster (a very offense-friendly environment) in 2014, Ruiz continued to show his trademark plate discpline and hitting ability, including his power potential, while playing a very good third base.
However, concerns have surfaced among some of my scouting contacts about his inability to go the other way. He's been a slow burner over his career - he missed most of his senior season in high school with a blood clot and got off to a slow start in professional baseball - but he's put together a nice career, even earning an invite to the Arizona Fall League in 2014, where he slashed just .187/.292/.227.
He's very much a ceiling prospect in a system with two options - Moran and Ruiz - who may have made him dispensable. But he's still a few months away from his twenty-first birthday and could already be ready for the high minors. That's no small accomplishment.
Andrew Thurman
Thurman, the Friday-night starter at UC Irvine, was drafted in the second round in 2013. An inning-eating build, a mid-nineties fastball, and two good breaking pitches had fans anxious to watch his development. Still, it surprised some to see him remain in Single-A ball all season in 2014, where he accrued a 5.38 ERA over 115 innings.
Like the other two prospects en route to Atlanta, Thurman has the potential to be a very solid player, but in a system teeming with C and C+ pitching prospects, he failed to separate himself from the pack. The 6'3" righty is the least-flashy name in the trade, and yet could end up being the crown of it, when all is said and done.
Analysis
Losing Foltynewicz, Ruiz, and Thurman is a blow to the Astros' system, without a doubt, but not necessarily a crippling one. It immediately gives the Braves one major league-ready flamethrower in Folty, plus a very promising young infield prospect and an innings-eater type in Thurman, who could steadily move up in their system, and may even land in their top twenty preseason prospects list.
For the Astros, a glut of pitching depth in the minors absorbs the impact of the loss of Thurman and Foltynewicz, though the latter's impact on the 2015 roster will almost certainly be felt. Ruiz may be the hardest loss, as he's developed a strong following among prospectphiles, and for good reason.
Have the trades really improved the Braves chances of winning a playoff series in the next 4-5 years? What are the odds the players acquired sum up to the sum of Heyward, Upton, Gattis? (or much greater if you don't believe last years team was anywhere near a playoff team)
It will be much sooner than that with the strength of the farm right now and the people in place picking players and developing them. Don't underestimate the impact of bringing back much of the old scouting guard back.
sturg33
I
They put up 11.3 fWAR last year. I would wager that the folks we got in return will never amount to that much in a single season
Heyward
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br>'13, '14, '15 (Co-Winner
No one knows but the farm system was AWFUL before Hart got to Atlanta.
Now it's borderline top 10.
No idea how the future will turn out, but these were moves that needed to be made.
Those guys wouldn't be here though past 2015. I really don't get whats so difficult to understand about this. So we are looking at a team without those guys and without those prospects. I can guarantee you the chances would be almost nill at that point.
jpx7
Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is.
Both are fair questions, I believe.
Obviously overall strategy, along with specific returns in the deals, is a big issue for the former line of inquiry—and the answer, though it's ultimately fairly aleatory, largely depends upon one's faith in Hart's evaluation of both talent and of talent-evaluators brought into the organization under him.
The latter is complicated by contractual issues, sure—but some of us believe this team was closer to title-contention than others, and with talent like the Braves had at some point you pony-up and play for the now or the next-few-years, as opposed to a nebulous future window of competitiveness.
tomahawkchop10
Gwinnett Bound
I get the trade. If your not ganna let Gattis catch, he should have been traded. My question is will this offense ever recover from this gutting? I see no light at the end of the tunnel. Sure we have a few decent hitting prospects now, but unless they really start opening the pocket books, I don't see how we have an offence that can compete within the next 3 years...
If by some miracle they sign Moncada it all makes a lot more sense.
Otherwise I agree, who is going to score runs for all these pitchers? The FA market is pretty bad the next few years as far as hitters go, and there is very little in terms of help in the minors, even after these trades.
sturg33
I
You don't seem to understand that we could have at least re-signed one of them. If we can't, then we're screwed anyways. In the process, we are giving away at least 2 seasons
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
Considering Heywood and Justin would be playing for different teams in 2016 I say there is a good chance the players we got will outperform the nothing we would have gotten from those 2 beyond 2015. I don't really care what their fWar will be because I care more about the actual win/loss record. This whole War **** is getting out of control. Maybe we should just do away with standings and just award games based on who scored the highest combined fWar.
NYCBrave
Well-known member
Well with a mid payroll organization, if your prospects don't pan out you're pretty much screwed anyway. It's the same story for us. Plus it looks like we'll have money to spend heading into 2017.