GDT 8/8 BRAVES vs. BREWERS

zbhargrove said:
So after almost a whole season is in the books, it's hard to believe a 22 year old who has had a limited amount of innings until now may not have some down velocity simply due to some fatigue?? Here was a scouting report with quotes from Sherman when the original trade was made. Whalen was considered the more heralded of him and Gant at the time. Sherman seemed to think he hit 92-93 in the minors and he would have known.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2530864-rob-whalen-john-gant-to-braves-trade-details-scouting-report-reaction
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Ok, then let's assume he has lost a couple ticks due to fatique. That gets him to an average sinker when he is well rested. I still don't see a "very good sinker" in there.
 
Enscheff said:
Ok, then let's assume he has lost a couple ticks due to fatique. That gets him to an average sinker when he is well rested. I still don't see a "very good sinker" in there.
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I did by just watching him with my own two eyeballs last night and his start before that... its crazy when you actually watch the players instead of relying completely on metrics... I guess all the strikeouts he's been getting are complete flukes.
 
zbhargrove said:
I did by just watching him with my own two eyeballs last night and his start before that... its crazy when you actually watch the players instead of relying completely on metrics... I guess all the strikeouts he's been getting are complete flukes.
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I watched the same games bud. A bad Brewers team and a struggling Pirates team are going to K quite a bit. And we are talking about 12 Ks in 11 IP, so let's not get too carried away.

Things like pitch movement and velocity stabilizes much more quickly than Ks.

So are you up for the bet or not?
 
Enscheff said:
I watched the same games bud. A bad Brewers team and a struggling Pirates team are going to K quite a bit. And we are talking about 12 Ks in 11 IP, so let's not get too carried away.

Things like pitch movement and velocity stabilizes much more quickly than Ks.

So are you up for the bet or not?
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No... because I'm not saying he definitely will be successful... I'm saying its stupid to just write him off and say he won't with his track record of success already.
 
I wouldn't bet for him OR against him. Let him pitch and the proof will come one way or another. Yes, odds are a little stacked against him...there are plenty of guys that have done well like him though. I don't think he'll have any problem being a #4 or #5. I hope ALL these young pitchers do really well, because when the young studs arrive...they can be moved for great prospects or needed pieces.
 
Enscheff said:
I watched the same games bud. A bad Brewers team and a struggling Pirates team are going to K quite a bit. And we are talking about 12 Ks in 11 IP, so let's not get too carried away.

Things like pitch movement and velocity stabilizes much more quickly than Ks.

So are you up for the bet or not?
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Folty struck out 4 vs the Pirates the day before and Jenkins struck out 2 the next day.

Bradley (dbacks) struck out 8 Brewers Sunday. We'll see how many Jenkins strikes out tonight.
 
msstate7 said:
Folty struck out 4 vs the Pirates the day before and Jenkins struck out 2 the next day.

Bradley (dbacks) struck out 8 Brewers Sunday. We'll see how many Jenkins strikes out tonight.
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Really grasping at straws here. Jenkins is a full grade better than Whalen, and Folty can't even see Whalen in his rear view mirror.

Those K values should tell you all you need to know about how pertinence the number of Ks Whalen has so far. For some reason it doesn't though. Guess you will draw conclusions however you want.
 
zbhargrove said:
Most teams would be very happy with a Paul Byrd type pitcher for their 4th or 5th.
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Yep. It's way too early to go off game by game performances. I want to see him pitch 15-20 games. If he is still performing...it's not a fluke. It's all about having the mentality to make the right pitch in the right spot. If he can locate, and if he has the confidence to deliver a good pitch in key spots. He will do fine. I've seen Folty, Blair and Wisler (with much better stuff), mentally loose it almost every game . Folty is doing better now...the jury is still out with the others.
 
Enscheff said:
Really grasping at straws here. Jenkins is a full grade better than Whalen, and Folty can't even see Whalen in his rear view mirror.

Those K values should tell you all you need to know about how pertinence the number of Ks Whalen has so far. For some reason it doesn't though. Guess you will draw conclusions however you want.
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I just stated facts without saying anything else. You said the Pirates and Brewers were striking out a lot when Whalen faced them. In the Brewers' case, that seems correct. In the Pirates' case though, it did not
 
Enscheff said:
Ok ok, you guys win. Whalen had the potential to be a successful mainstay in the Braves rotation for the next 5+ years.
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There you go again... No one has called him a mainstay in the rotation for 5+ years or even 1 year or even 1 month. Unlike you, we'd just like to see him get a shot right now instead of watching a radar gun in the first inning and dfa him for not hitting 90
 
msstate7 said:
There you go again... No one has called him a mainstay in the rotation for 5+ years or even 1 year or even 1 month. Unlike you, we'd just like to see him get a shot right now instead of watching a radar gun in the first inning and dfa him for not hitting 90
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I didn't say he was a mainstay. I said he has the potential to be a mainstay, as do all 22 year old RHers with below average 88 MPH sinkers. I look forward to watching him continue to make his case in the Braves rotation.
 
Enscheff said:
Yes, there are pitchers that succeed for a short while despite underwhelming stuff. That's why I said "sustained success" and mentioned 3 years. When Medlen was going good I cautioned that the moment he lost even a tick off his stuff his command and "knowing how to pitch" would no longer be enough to make up for it. I was brow beaten endlessly then too by the same brain trust that is harping on me now.

I was a huge proponent of selling high on Medlen. That didn't happen and the Braves extracted almost zero value from him after his one good season. Same with JJ. I hope the Braves will have learned their lesson when it comes time to cash in Teheran in 2-3 years.

Hell, just last year there were folks on this board saying Williams Freaking Perez was a legit option for the 3/4 slot in the rotation because he "just knew how to pitch", and "just gets hitters out". Again, I was lambasted then for saying Perez should not figure into the plans of a contending team. They were wrong then, they are wrong now, yet they still say the same things about all AAAA pitchers that enjoy a hit of early success.
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there was an intervening event or two with Medlen.
 
Medlen was hurt...Perez hurt (I wasn't that big on either of them), but it wasn't because they were getting beat down. Injuries happen and are hard to predict. That is the MAIN worry with Julio for me though.
 
Enscheff said:
I didn't say he was a mainstay. I said he has the potential to be a mainstay, as do all 22 year old RHers with below average 88 MPH sinkers. I look forward to watching him continue to make his case in the Braves rotation.
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Ha, you look forward to the chance of getting to gloat if he doesn't more than anything else since you've declared his case closed.

I think maybe the rest of us look forward to his making his case.

I don't think your expressed fear that the Braves have ceased their search for starting pitching because they have promoted Whalen is very well founded. I think that's probably a very unsophisticated fear.

Anyway, Whalen's minor league stats are about as good as you could ask for his stuff. They are indicative of a player who has very good control. The lack of walks, the reasonable number of Ks, and the fact that he wasn't been hit particularly hard suggest that maybe he's a better bet than most to be somewhat successful with his stuff.

how long it might last? who knows. Do most people with his stuff fail? Sure. Most people with more than his stuff fail. the beauty of a rebuilding team is he'll get chances until he fails and someone else is behind him.
 
I'm surprised that in this conversation no one has brought up the recent Braves right-handed sinker ball pitcher who had pretty good success in spite of not having the big velocity. Maybe someone did and I missed it.
 
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