Global Events & Politics Überthread

cajunrevenge said:
Do you think we should go to war with China to free the Uygur Muslims?
Click to expand...

1. I didn't say the US should go to war with anyone.

2. If the Chinese government were taking innocent US civilians hostages, along with murdering and raping US Civilians as well, then I would hope certainly hope the US government would use military force against China.
 
Carp said:
But that is reality. It indeed is an either/or scenario. War is suffering. Had the Allied not taken the actions we did against Germany (in which a lot of innocent Germans died) then we may have never ended the Holocaust. So you are either ok with the Holocaust to save innocent German lives, or you believe countries should do what is necessary to defeat evil and violent extremist.

It sucks, indeed. But when your overseers are brutal extremists, you must either join the fight against them, or become complicit in their actions.
Click to expand...

No, the reality is not that the holocaust is happening if Israel doesn’t take total control of Gaza. Israel has already dominated the territory for decades and inflicted countless laws restricting the movement of Palestinians and often enforces those laws barbarically. It’s not an excuse for Hamas to commit violence or take hostages, but this is more akin to the Native Americans fighting back during American expansion than the Nazis coming to power in Germany. The power dynamic is flipped.
 
goldfly said:
I can

as long as Hamas says those deaths help them and they hold hostages etc

**** that theocracy that wants to kill jews more than help the people they were voted to help and have been given billions to build a society and instead they funneled that money to kill Jews
Click to expand...

All I’m saying is that those people would be alive if Israel didn’t decide their lives were expendable to go after terrorists. You do not absolve Hamas of any guilt for being terrorist scum, or fail to call for them to release hostages and stop being terrorists, but if you excuse any and all death in Israel’s response, you could justify Israel nuking every other nation in the Middle East.
 
mqt said:
No, the reality is not that the holocaust is happening if Israel doesn’t take total control of Gaza. Israel has already dominated the territory for decades and inflicted countless laws restricting the movement of Palestinians and often enforces those laws barbarically. It’s not an excuse for Hamas to commit violence or take hostages, but this is more akin to the Native Americans fighting back during American expansion than the Nazis coming to power in Germany. The power dynamic is flipped.
Click to expand...

You missed the point. Either you are in favor of taking innocent lives on the side of the enemy to protect other innocent lives or you're not. If you aren't, then you are ambiguous to historical events like the Holocaust.

We don't live in vacuum where the path of least resistance champions all other options. The Palestinians have an option to end the War. They are actively choosing not to take that path.

And it is in no way like the American Indian wars. Palestinians are not the indigenous people of that land. This is vastly more similar to the Russia/Ukraine War, where Palestine (Hamas) invaded Israel. The difference is, Israel had a better ability to defend itself than Ukraine did.
 
Last edited:
Carp said:
You missed the point. Either you are in favor of taking innocent lives on the side of the enemy to protect other innocent lives or you're not. If you aren't, then you are ambiguous to historical events like the Holocaust.

We don't live in vacuum where the path of least resistance champions all other options. The Palestinians have an option to end the War. They are actively choosing not to take that path.

And it is in no way like the American Indian wars. Palestinians are not the indigenous people of that land. This is vastly more similar to the Russia/Ukraine War, where Palestine (Hamas) invaded Israel. The difference is, Israel had a better ability to defend itself than Ukraine did.
Click to expand...

This is at best oversimplifying the situation and at worst an outright lie. In the past century we’ve seen hundreds of thousands of Palestinians expelled from their homes, either by force or by fear. I’m well aware that Israel needs to protect itself and there’s more at play than just Palestinian civilians in this overall conflict, but let’s not pretend that the claim that Palestinians had their land stolen is some fringe conspiracy theory.
 
chop2chip said:
Shockingly sparse coverage of the French elections in this thread.
Click to expand...

I feel like the recent French and British elections have put a large dent in the theory that we’re experiencing a global rebuke of progressive politics as some segments on the right have posited. I do not think the “Liberal” parties winning means much for November or means that leftism is dominating the globe. I just think the global economy is bad and incumbent parties globally are taking a fall for it. In France and Britain, that happened to be moderate and conservative parties. But the defenses put up from the right in both races (I know it’s somewhat more nuanced than this in France, but they still rejected Le Pen) leaned heavily on migration and rather conservative social issues, which didn’t prove to be effective in garnering the widespread support they imagined.
 
mqt said:
This is at best oversimplifying the situation and at worst an outright lie. In the past century we’ve seen hundreds of thousands of Palestinians expelled from their homes, either by force or by fear. I’m well aware that Israel needs to protect itself and there’s more at play than just Palestinian civilians in this overall conflict, but let’s not pretend that the claim that Palestinians had their land stolen is some fringe conspiracy theory.
Click to expand...

Palestine is not a country. It has never been a country. Claiming otherwise is an outright lie.

There was a civil war over occupied land that was previously under British rulke. And a subsequent 7 days war a couple decades later. Israel won both. End of story.

Again, why aren't you in favor of Ukraine being returned to Russia? Germany is immensely smaller than it was 100 years ago. Should we condemn the countries that occupy land formally controlled by them?
 
Last edited:
mqt said:
I feel like the recent French and British elections have put a large dent in the theory that we’re experiencing a global rebuke of progressive politics as some segments on the right have posited. I do not think the “Liberal” parties winning means much for November or means that leftism is dominating the globe. I just think the global economy is bad and incumbent parties globally are taking a fall for it. In France and Britain, that happened to be moderate and conservative parties. But the defenses put up from the right in both races (I know it’s somewhat more nuanced than this in France, but they still rejected Le Pen) leaned heavily on migration and rather conservative social issues, which didn’t prove to be effective in garnering the widespread support they imagined.
Click to expand...

I'm just amazed France has 3 parties. What a marvelous revelation that must be.
 
Carp said:
Palestine is not a country. It has never been a country. Claiming otherwise is an outright lie.

There was a civil war. And a subsequent 7 days war. Israel won both. End of story.

Again, why aren't you in favor of Ukraine being returned to Russia? Germany is immensely smaller than it was 100 years ago. Should we condemn the countries that occupy land formally controlled by them?
Click to expand...

Which is why I would liken this more to the Native Americans. Palestine does not need to be a nation for its people to exist and have been expelled from their land there. And even if it’s just due to not being capable of invading, Hamas has no plans to seize Israeli land. Bring those that commit violence to justice. But between the dead civilians and the total destruction in Gaza, Israel has responded to an act of violence with total war. And they seemingly have a mandate to kill or displace an entire population if it means succeeding.

Russia and Ukraine isn’t a similar situation. Russia was the clear aggressor, as Hamas was. But Ukraine is the primary victim of the war, whereas the Palestinian civilians are the primary victims of this one. As you might expect from my feelings on migration, my primary concern is not with the way the lines are drawn on a map. It’s the use of force to take land or resources, which harms the citizens in those areas.
 
Carp said:
I'm just amazed France has 3 parties. What a marvelous revelation that must be.
Click to expand...

I’m not sure what minor tweaks could lead to a true 3+ party system in America, but I deeply want it. Right now with every vote you make you’re forced to choose one side or the other on about 50 different important issues with 0 chance to influence any of the issues you disagree with your side’s party on.

I think there are a number of significant, apolitical measures we could take to make it viable, but it would take a lot of cooperation. If you could set term limits (maybe 12 years for each?) and crack down hard on the money spent in elections, I think a lot of our 2 party rule would crumble immediately. I’d prefer each congressional race to have a hard cap on funds raised and to reduce the election season down to maybe 3-6 months.
 
mqt said:
Which is why I would liken this more to the Native Americans. Palestine does not need to be a nation for its people to exist and have been expelled from their land there. And even if it’s just due to not being capable of invading, Hamas has no plans to seize Israeli land. Bring those that commit violence to justice. But between the dead civilians and the total destruction in Gaza, Israel has responded to an act of violence with total war. And they seemingly have a mandate to kill or displace an entire population if it means succeeding.

Russia and Ukraine isn’t a similar situation. Russia was the clear aggressor, as Hamas was. But Ukraine is the primary victim of the war, whereas the Palestinian civilians are the primary victims of this one. As you might expect from my feelings on migration, my primary concern is not with the way the lines are drawn on a map. It’s the use of force to take land or resources, which harms the citizens in those areas.
Click to expand...

Talk about misrepresentation.

The only reason Hamas has not seized Israeli land is because they can't. Not because they don't want to. Hamas literally wants the entire destruction of Israel. Palestinians are allowing Hamas to dictate their fate. For the thousandth time, Palestinians can the end this war if they truly wanted to. The problem is that they would rather play the victim and spew hate at Israel, rather than expel their extremists overseers who keep flaming the fires of war.

Russians don't want the war with Ukraine either by the way.
 
mqt said:
I’m not sure what minor tweaks could lead to a true 3+ party system in America, /QUOTE]

Education.
Teach people different political philosophies.

Based on the reaction to CRT which would lead to an AA party of sorts, aint happenin'.

Based on the cultural backlash and basic misunderstanding of the nature of Socialsm
It sint happeni

I guess my point is a more ideologically tolerant society
.......

Other than personalities, not sure how a 3-4 let alone 10 party system would make a difference or day to day function
Click to expand...
 
Nextly. Who and how do 3rd or 4th parties get funded ?

Yes it would require a massive overhaul of our electoral system
Shoot we cant even find common ground on life and death issues- public health -


Thirdly. Isnt our system of primary electiomns an airing for 3rd -4th party issues ?
And yes, often those issues find footing.
Look to Ron Paul --- Trump !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top