We have issues now.
Grade the front office this offseason.
- Thread starter weso1
- Start date
We have issues now.
The timing of the issues is much more inline with the organizations plans which is to be good in 2017.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Or they could have had the same record as last year.
I agree that Hart could have waited a couple of more weeks before starting the sell-off and if a guy like Cahill were projected to be available for the same deal in December, does that change the parameters for the Heyward trade? All debatable points for which a strong argument can be made.
And I think all you've really done by loading up for 2015 is delay the inevitable re-build post-2015. To me the bottom line is that unless you've got a Yankee/Red Sox-sized budget, you (1) can't have Uggla/Melvin-type contracts and (2) you have to have a reliable pipeline of players and we were bereft of top-tier prospects to flip. Some of that was due to guys graduating the system and some of it was due to prospects-for-established player(s) deals. But the wiggle room was gone. I don't see how that can be contested.
sturg33
I
Heyward trade: C+ ... As Zito said, didn't like the return for an elite, affordable talent like Heyward. Also, what hurts this one is I think we needed to keep one of Heyward or Upton long term and that is significantly less likely
Markakis signing: F ... baffling
Upton trade: C ... Went for quantity over quality, and injured quantity at that. After the Heyward trade, was hoping we'd try to sign him long term
Winkler pick up ... A+
Man Ban trade: A- ... not a lot of downside here... but it looks a little worse after the Kimbrel trade. Still no real complaints
Ricardo Sanchez: B+ ... high upside arm, so i like that. But Kibitza does seem like a good bet to make the big leagues, so hardly a low risk move
Gattis trade: A- ... Traded Gattis at his peak value... just wish we got more hitting
Stella trade: B+ ... looks worse now, but we are have a ton of depth here
Kimbrel trade: A+ ... I think closers are overrated and easier to replace... clearing that salary plus getting the prospects kind of saved the offseason
Overall: B- ... Losing talents like Heyward and Upton and not acquiring a single impact bat back is inexcusable. We have a lot of work to do to get back to relevance. The Kimbrel trade gives me confidence they can do it a little sooner than befroe
Markakis signing: F ... baffling
Upton trade: C ... Went for quantity over quality, and injured quantity at that. After the Heyward trade, was hoping we'd try to sign him long term
Winkler pick up ... A+
Man Ban trade: A- ... not a lot of downside here... but it looks a little worse after the Kimbrel trade. Still no real complaints
Ricardo Sanchez: B+ ... high upside arm, so i like that. But Kibitza does seem like a good bet to make the big leagues, so hardly a low risk move
Gattis trade: A- ... Traded Gattis at his peak value... just wish we got more hitting
Stella trade: B+ ... looks worse now, but we are have a ton of depth here
Kimbrel trade: A+ ... I think closers are overrated and easier to replace... clearing that salary plus getting the prospects kind of saved the offseason
Overall: B- ... Losing talents like Heyward and Upton and not acquiring a single impact bat back is inexcusable. We have a lot of work to do to get back to relevance. The Kimbrel trade gives me confidence they can do it a little sooner than befroe
Ummmm it didn't last year sir. That team needed to be shook up with far less Ks. I actually like the team we have now and the future actually looks very bright! Heyward and Upton were more than like gone at the end of the year had we kept the team as constructed.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Paul Snyder retired after 2007. That's when the farm went downhill. 2008 draft produced 5 major leaguers, Spruill, Kimbrel, Clemens, Oberholtzer, Hoover. 2009 produced 2. Minor and Hale. Maybe 3 if Northcraft can ever make the jump.
2010 first year after Clark left, Cunningham, Simmons, Gosselin, Terds, Shreve, and Gattis, and maybe some more as Drury and Leonard are both in the upper minors. 2011 Ahmed, Graham, La Stella, and Schlosser, With guys still in the upper minors Gilmartin, Kubitza, and Martin. 2012 has produced as many major leaguers as 2009 with Wood and Simmons. and of course we still have Sims in the upper minors.
You may be thinking, what about international guys? Well we did net a big one in 08, Julio Teheran. But I'm pressed to think of others. Could be my memory failing me. But it's not like Wren and co sucked at getting international signings, Peraza, Mejia, Albies, Camargo, Cabrera, and other guys who have value to our system were there.
To me the greatest fallacy is that Wren wrecked our system. He restocked our depleted system that JS left him with and 1 mediocre and 1 poor draft left him with not much in the minors. So he went out and got guys to stock our upper minors and build our depth.
NinersSBChamps
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br> 2015 (Co-Winner)</BR>20
I don't understand the fascination with draft picks. This isn't the NFL or NBA. Majority of draft picks are really never heard of again.
sturg33
I
OK... but every super star was a draft pick, and most likely - a high one.
4 years of Shelby Miller and 6 years of Jenkins is far greater than 1 yr of Heyward, 2 years of a relief pitcher that come a dime a dozen and a "wild card" draft pick that Jenkins could turn out to be far better than.
This is misleading without the years of control to put the deal into context.
Its funny when people say, "How could you trade Heyward for Miller?!?!?".
Thats not what the Braves did exactly.
1 year of controlled Heyward, 2 years of a relief pitcher, and a potential draft pick for 4 years of a middle of the rotation starter and a ok prospect that hasn't pitched in AA yet. (potentially 6 years)
Sounds like a pretty fair deal to me and if Jenkins does anything then it slightly tips to the Braves.
sturg33
I
It's not misleading... you can make the argument that the high draft pick we gave away is just as likely to make it as Jenkins... So we gave 6 years of control of that future player for Jenkins.
So now it's 1 year of Heyward (who is SO much better than Miller), 2 years of Walden, for 4 years of Miller - who, to this point, as been pretty mediocre.
You've mentioned that we "bought low" on Miller. When you're trading an asset like Heyward, you shouldn't be buying low on someone.
NinersSBChamps
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br> 2015 (Co-Winner)</BR>20
Or instead of wasting time on possibly waiting for a draft pick to pan out, they could be proactive and attempt find real major league talent that is proven to be good.
Nobody is going to offer what you think they are going to offer for 1 year of a player. Why would they? Cardinals have already tried to extend Heyward and he has rebuffed. All signs are pointing to Heyward going to FA at this point.
Also, based on scouting reports I think its more likely at this point that Jenkins does something as opposed to the draft pick. Not by an overwhelming amount but the reports and Jenkins are strong (aside from injury concerns) and based on what he flashed in ST I think it corroborates that.
You just offended JS
NinersSBChamps
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br> 2015 (Co-Winner)</BR>20
The more this Kimbrel trade resonates with me, the worse it is. It's a historic bad trade. Craig right now is the best pitcher in history. Sample size and what have you aside...the numbers don't lie here. They gave him away for unproven kids. Even if these kids prospects end up living up to their billing it's still an awful deal. When he goes into the Hall of Fame wearing a Padres cap you all will know how awful this trade is, was, and will be.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
Sorry you feel that way.
You may be right. It's more likely that he'll regress or have a catastrophic injury in the next 3 years. My statement is based on most relief pitchers, pitching in general, and his frame. He could be Mariano Rivera durable, who knows. Maybe he would have only pitched 70 innings for us b/c we never have the lead in the 9th.
Another way to look at is that the braves maximized him as an asset. They got many years of cheap hall of fame level production on him and then sold him.
Agree that most picks don't pan out. But here is the Braves' plan IMO:
1. Lots of picks means a big pool of money. It allows you to overpay and get someone who might be a tough sign. Gives you a chance at a STUD
2. If you accumulate a bunch of high upside guys, and a small percentage pan out, then you still have a low cost controllable stud instead of 5-7 avg players. Studs are hard to come by these days.
For the saber guys, Wisler is likely to provide more value over 2016 and 2017 than CK.