HRC

They won't be eating out of her hand, but I do think they will find her less objectionable than the current President. She's a centrist and while there are clearly substantial parts of her platform that many Americans do not agree with, I think she's someone who wants to move things forward and she will be less ideologically driven (or perceived as such) than Obama has been.

On balance, Clinton was barely a centrist before the primaries. It seems that now, especially after having been forced to swoop in and quell the 'Bernie Brigade', that she leans decidedly more left, especially with respect to economic policies (which have traditionally been the greatest differentiator between the two main parties in elections to begin with.) Usually, in the general, you see the candidates begin to 'soften' to appeal to the broader electorate. We're seeing Trump do this right now, with basically zero gravitas. But Hillary hasn't gone there yet. I mean she hasn't addressed policy at all. It's just basically been a shelling of Trump and the current GOP ideology. It could be that she's scared yet of alienating independents, it could be that her advisers have urged her to stay in a holding pattern because, thanks to Trump's unique self-sabotage abilities, she doesn't need to even give the appearance of softening.

Maybe she will make a mad dash back to the center. I'm very curious to see how her people handle it.
 
On balance, Clinton was barely a centrist before the primaries. It seems that now, especially after having been forced to swoop in and quell the 'Bernie Brigade', that she leans decidedly more left, especially with respect to economic policies (which have traditionally been the greatest differentiator between the two main parties in elections to begin with.) Usually, in the general, you see the candidates begin to 'soften' to appeal to the broader electorate. We're seeing Trump do this right now, with basically zero gravitas. But Hillary hasn't gone there yet. I mean she hasn't addressed policy at all. It's just basically been a shelling of Trump and the current GOP ideology. It could be that she's scared yet of alienating independents, it could be that her advisers have urged her to stay in a holding pattern because, thanks to Trump's unique self-sabotage abilities, she doesn't need to even give the appearance of softening.

Maybe she will make a mad dash back to the center. I'm very curious to see how her people handle it.

If she's not a centrist, the center has moved a lot further to the right in this country than I imagine. She doesn't have to dash back to the center. She is in full command of it. She hasn't addressed policy because she hasn't had to. I think her past record would be an indicator of what kind of President she would be. I think she will promote incremental progress toward reining in college costs and reform of the ACA (both of which seem to have bipartisan support). On foreign policy, she will probably be more hawkish than Obama. As such, she will likely be a disappointment to the math-impaired among Sanders' supporters. She's running as a soccer mom technocrat that isn't particularly driven by ideology and it seems to be working.
 
If she's not a centrist, the center has moved a lot further to the right in this country than I imagine. She doesn't have to dash back to the center. She is in full command of it. She hasn't addressed policy because she hasn't had to. I think her past record would be an indicator of what kind of President she would be. I think she will promote incremental progress toward reining in college costs and reform of the ACA (both of which seem to have bipartisan support). On foreign policy, she will probably be more hawkish than Obama. As such, she will likely be a disappointment to the math-impaired among Sanders' supporters. She's running as a soccer mom technocrat that isn't particularly driven by ideology and it seems to be working.

http://www.ontheissues.org/hillary_clinton.htm

What, specifically, would lead you to believe that Clinton is middle of the road? There is nothing in her Senatorial record which would support this - in fact, she runs in the same circles as Elizabeth Warren when comparing/contrasting their voting records. But more contemporarily, her economic policies, her immigration platform, position on criminal justice reform, social policies, are all decidedly liberal. The only area where I might concede any sort of centrist or right-wing ideological similarity is foreign affairs, and this is based primarily off her voting for the Iraq War and what little by the way of meaningful diplomacy she was able to implement as Secretary of State.

I see her as having gone left to combat Obama, and having gone left yet again to combat Sanders. From positions that Neoliberals already embraced. This notion that she is coasting along in the center lane (in her minivan) seems a bit removed from reality. I think that is the message the campaign would love to send, but I just don't see it.
 
They won't be eating out of her hand, but I do think they will find her less objectionable than the current President. She's a centrist and while there are clearly substantial parts of her platform that many Americans do not agree with, I think she's someone who wants to move things forward and she will be less ideologically driven (or perceived as such) than Obama has been.

I know pretty much all Repubs will disagree with this, but I see her presidency (assuming this happens) as being much more like their own stuff than Dem stuff including Obama. I know you probably will disagree with this, but IMO Hill belongs to many of the same scumbag ahole special interests that piss me off about Repubs, so while they're probably never really accept her, they will "curse her all the way to the bank" so to speak. Of course while Obama's name will go down in history on the Repub side as Hall Of Shame worthy, how many of them added to their billions because of his policies?

Where's Bedell's "habanero encrusted ice pick" meme when we really need it?
 
I know pretty much all Repubs will disagree with this, but I see her presidency (assuming this happens) as being much more like their own stuff than Dem stuff including Obama. I know you probably will disagree with this, but IMO Hill belongs to many of the same scumbag ahole special interests that piss me off about Repubs, so while they're probably never really accept her, they will "curse her all the way to the bank" so to speak. Of course while Obama's name will go down in history on the Repub side as Hall Of Shame worthy, how many of them added to their billions because of his policies?

Where's Bedell's "habanero encrusted ice pick" meme when we really need it?

I think what you say is accurate. A really great book to read this campaign season (even though the book is 16 years old) is Ruy Teixeira's and Joel Rogers' America's Forgotten Majority: Why the White Working Class Still Matters. The book slices and dices a lot of data, but one of the more informative chapters deals with the history of the Democratic Leadership Conference (later re-branded as the New Democrats) that started out talking about moderate social policy, but ended up being cozy with Wall Street and special interests. Bill and Hillary were involved from the get-go and there is no doubt they are (or have been) too close to the financial industry over the years (witness Terry McAuliffe).

Hawk, Hillary tacked a bit to the left to sew up the nomination, but there's really no way she and Elizabeth Warren are peas in a pod, voting records or not. Let's remember that Hillary was in the Senate during the Bush 43 administration with Democrats often voting in blocs against the Administration's initiatives. Where she supported W. (Iraq) says a lot more than where she didn't (just about everything else).
 
The funnest part of the campaign so far (to me) is the Faux Scandal of the Day

and how they get summarily dismissed

Eric Boehlert Verified account
‏@EricBoehlert

ICYMI, Clinton Foundation 'scandal' has been downgraded to How Aides Scheduled Meetings At St. Dept . #Zzzz

Cqj0AHeXgAA0TFK.jpg:large

You don't find anything troubling about the Secretary of State giving preferential time and ear to big-time donors to her family's charitable organization?
 
If she's not a centrist, the center has moved a lot further to the right in this country than I imagine.

From my perspective on the spectrum, she's centrist domestically and center-right with respect to foreign-policy, but yes: the center has moved a lot further to the right in this country.
 
I'm sorry, but this idea that she is a centrist is a complete farce.

I'd vote for centrist!

s080_010.gif

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Hillary_Clinton.htm

The proof is in the pudding, right?

http://www.npr.org/2016/07/23/487082207/where-tim-kaine-and-hillary-clinton-stand-on-key-issues
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/clinton-dems-embrace-progressive-vision-little-resistance
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/28/hillary-clintons-liberal-shift-puts-her-at-progres/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-2008-2016_us_56041a79e4b0fde8b0d184a2
http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-hillary-clinton-shifted-leftward-1465345261
https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalD...what_evidence_is_there_to_support_the_common/

I could go on, but I get the sense that this is one of those things where people are going to espouse the same viewpoint regardless of facts. Which I understand completely, it's the very nature of politics.

If party platforms matter – and the jury is out on that – what happened this weekend in a sweltering Hilton conference room was remarkable. The Democratic Party shifted further to the left in one election than perhaps since 1972, embracing once-unthinkable stances on carbon pricing, police reform, abortion rights, the minimum wage and the war on drugs. It did so with very little ideological resistance and a lot of comity between the supporters of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton.

“We have produced by far the most progressive platform that this party has seen in multiple generations,” said Connecticut Gov. Dan Malloy (D), co-chairman of the platform committee.
 
She should be in jail. If we did what she did, we wouldn't be posting.

Be afraid saying anything about her, you might end up with a bullet in the back or missing, a dead carcass being eaten by animals.

She is a centrist to me but I don't care about that, I care about her criminal activity.
 
I'm sorry, but this idea that she is a centrist is a complete farce.

I'd vote for centrist!

s080_010.gif

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Hillary_Clinton.htm

The proof is in the pudding, right?

http://www.npr.org/2016/07/23/487082207/where-tim-kaine-and-hillary-clinton-stand-on-key-issues
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/clinton-dems-embrace-progressive-vision-little-resistance

I could go, but I get the sense that this is one of those things where people are going to espouse the same viewpoint regardless of facts. Which I understand completely, it's the very nature of politics.

If party platforms matter – and the jury is out on that – what happened this weekend in a sweltering Hilton conference room was remarkable. The Democratic Party shifted further to the left in one election than perhaps since 1972, embracing once-unthinkable stances on carbon pricing, police reform, abortion rights, the minimum wage and the war on drugs. It did so with very little ideological resistance and a lot of comity between the supporters of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton.

“We have produced by far the most progressive platform that this party has seen in multiple generations,” said Connecticut Gov. Dan Malloy (D), co-chairman of the platform committee.

But if you read that schematic, it shows the Hillary is pretty liberal on the social issues, but if you walk it across to the economic issues, she's hardly in the same camp as Sanders or Warren, who would score far lower on the economic scale (if I am reading the schematic correctly).
 
But if you read that schematic, it shows the Hillary is pretty liberal on the social issues, but if you walk it across to the economic issues, she's hardly in the same camp as Sanders or Warren, who would score far lower on the economic scale (if I am reading the schematic correctly).

The breakdown is 78% social and 13% economic. According to the site:

Social Score
This measures how much the candidate believes government should intervene in people's personal lives or on social issues. These issues include health, morality, love, recreation, prayer and other activities that are not measured in dollars.

A high score (above 60%) means the candidate believes in tolerance for different people and lifestyles.
A low score (below 40%) means the candidate believes that standards of morality & safety should be enforced by government.

Economic Score

This measures how much the candidate believes government should intervene in people's economic lives. Economic issues include retirement funding, budget allocations, and taxes.

A high score (above 60%) means the candidate believes in personal responsibility for financial matters, and that free-market competition is better for people than central planning by the government.
A low score (below 40%) means the candidate believes that a good society is best achieved by the government redistributing wealth. The candidate believes that government's purpose is to decide which programs are good for society, and how much should be spent on each program.

Now, obviously, I'm not touting OnTheIssues as my definitive source here. I feel much more comfortable evidencing the body of her political career.

That being said, speaking directly to the economic issues you referenced, I just don't see how anybody openly and actively advocating for the expansion of the welfare system, raising taxes, upping the minimum wage, etc., can be labeled as anything but a progressive liberal. I don't believe it has anything to do with 'the center moving' ... this has largely been the Democratic party platform for the past ~25 years.

A charitable compromise might be to call her a moderate, but centrist (which literally means between the two parties) she is not.

Now, do I see Hillary/Bernie/Warren as one in the same? Not in the slightest. But Hillary is a far, far cry from centrists like Chris Christie (hi 57) or George Pataki or, hell ... Donald Trump (let's face it, this is what he's most likely going to round out as).
 
The breakdown is 78% social and 13% economic. According to the site:

Now, obviously, I'm not touting OnTheIssues as my definitive source here. I feel much more comfortable evidencing the body of her political career.

That being said, speaking directly to the economic issues you referenced, I just don't see how anybody openly and actively advocating for the expansion of the welfare system, raising taxes, upping the minimum wage, etc., can be labeled as anything but a progressive liberal. I don't believe it has anything to do with 'the center moving' ... this has largely been the Democratic party platform for the past ~25 years.

A charitable compromise might be to call her a moderate, but centrist (which literally means between the two parties) she is not.

Now, do I see Hillary/Bernie/Warren as one in the same? Not in the slightest. But Hillary is a far, far cry from centrists like Chris Christie (hi 57) or George Pataki or, hell ... Donald Trump (let's face it, this is what he's most likely going to round out as).

Agreed. There is nothing centrist about doubling the minimum wage. That skips over liberal right into economically illiterate.

Your average American sees discussion on the minimum wage and thinks, "Why not? That girl who serves me my coffee every morning deserves a raise!" That same average American doesn't bother to think about the fact that prices are going up on just about everything when the wage goes up drastically. Nor does he/she think about what's going to happen to the guy who is currently bringing home $20/hr - lower end of the middle class. Right now that worker is currently well above the minimum both in real wages and earning power. I guarantee you that his wage isn't going to go up enough to compensate for the increased costs he'll face, nor will they increase enough to maintain his place on the economic spectrum.

Think about what happens when the price of a gallon of gas goes from $2.00 to $3.50 in a short time frame. Our economy damn near grinds to a halt. Labor is a much higher percentage of cost of goods sold/ cost of services than fuel cost for most industries. And it will be the middle class, particularly the lower levels of it, that will bear the brunt. The 1% will be fine. Normal consumer goods make up such a small percentage of their spending that it won't matter to them. Corporations will be okay, particularly the ones that are supposedly the target of a MW increase - Walmart, McD's, etc. They have enough market power that they can bump up their prices and be fine. The working poor will see a very short term windfall, but that will be eaten up in relatively short order by increased prices. Their purchasing power will, at best, remain the same.
Small businesses, most of which are owned/operated by middle class earners, will be hit hard. The middle class will shrink, and it won't be because of its members graduating into the upper classes either.

Back on topic...Hillary gives one speech and promises tax credits for small business, and other business friendly policies. Then she goes across town to the weekly SEIU terror cell meeting and starts hyping the "Fight for Fifteen" again. We KNOW she's lying to someone - both from her conflicting statements and the fact that her lips are moving. Given her voting record, I think it's safe to assume that she's going to take care of those that have reliably supported her and her party rather than those on the right she is currently courting. She knows the Republicans that vote for her this time will turn on her regardless assuming that the GOP puts up anything close to a credible candidate in 2020.
 
The breakdown is 78% social and 13% economic. According to the site:

Now, obviously, I'm not touting OnTheIssues as my definitive source here. I feel much more comfortable evidencing the body of her political career.

That being said, speaking directly to the economic issues you referenced, I just don't see how anybody openly and actively advocating for the expansion of the welfare system, raising taxes, upping the minimum wage, etc., can be labeled as anything but a progressive liberal. I don't believe it has anything to do with 'the center moving' ... this has largely been the Democratic party platform for the past ~25 years.

A charitable compromise might be to call her a moderate, but centrist (which literally means between the two parties) she is not.

Now, do I see Hillary/Bernie/Warren as one in the same? Not in the slightest. But Hillary is a far, far cry from centrists like Chris Christie (hi 57) or George Pataki or, hell ... Donald Trump (let's face it, this is what he's most likely going to round out as).

In terms of domestic issues* (by which I mean mostly economic issues; I think identity politics, while not insignificant, can also be a bit of a distraction), I'm using the term "centrist" not to mean "between the two [US institutional] parties", but rather "vaguely in the center of a spectrum that ranges from essentially stateless liberty (think anarcho-capitalism) to dictatorship of the proletariat". While I'm not sure "centrist literally means" between the platforms of D and R, I'm happy to use "moderate" instead for the ideological position to which I'm referring.

*(I was, by the way, being a lot more simplistic with respect to foreign policy, meaning simply by "center-right" that Clinton tilts the hawkish side of the hawk/dove dichotomy.)
 
In terms of domestic issues* (by which I mean mostly economic issues; I think identity politics, while not insignificant, can also be a bit of a distraction), I'm using the term "centrist" not to mean "between the two [US institutional] parties", but rather "vaguely in the center of a spectrum that ranges from essentially stateless liberty (think anarcho-capitalism) to dictatorship of the proletariat". While I'm not sure "centrist literally means" between the platforms of D and R, I'm happy to use "moderate" instead for the ideological position to which I'm referring.

*(I was, by the way, being a lot more simplistic with respect to foreign policy, meaning simply by "center-right" that Clinton tilts the hawkish side of the hawk/dove dichotomy.)

I see what you are saying, but couldn't we then dub virtually every major American politician for the past hundred years as a centrist (excepting the lunatic fringe - but even then, not really) under the spectrum you are outlining? After all, the last time notions of a true democracy were discussed at a federal level was around the time the Federalist papers were published. Since that time, the vast majority, if not all, Presidential candidates and Presidents elect have been Republicans. So, yes ... I would feel comfortable labeling Hillary Clinton as a centrist under those broad parameters, but I was painting my observations with a much more narrow (and contemporary) brush.

The definition of centrist that I'm going by supposes that there is a 'center ideology' - wedged between the core tenets of the two major (American) parties - and a centrist candidate holds what is tantamount to an amalgamation of the most pragmatic components of each of the contrasting parties platforms.

I agree with you, social politics are largely trivial, and they throw a wrench in any meaningful analysis of a candidate at this level. So I'll throw them out. I'll also throw out the technical consideration of Clinton having accepted the Democratic platform to run under, which would disqualify her from fitting under the centrist umbrella by default (as it would any major candidate).

What we have left to undertake is a basic evaluation of her personal opinions on governance in general and the economy. And this is interesting, because I see an individual who has spent her entire life in public service advocating for big government handing off capital to the proletariat in a very dictatorial fashion. I'm speaking of health care, primarily, but there's a strong case to be made in other areas of personal finance as well. With respect to governance, it's a little cloudy, but we have witnessed a leader who clearly prefers unilateral decision making often exacted deceitfully or in secret.

As you can see, there's not much to go by here if we don't bring in the platform she is running under and the decisions she has made as an elected official. If we do, she's squarely a moderate Democrat. And I don't see what's wrong with calling a spade a spade. Trying to classify her any differently seems, to me, a kind of inferred shame in modern liberalism/progressivism (or neo-Liberalism as it were).

I've addressed how I feel like her economic agenda is incredibly slanted to the left, and I am aware that her positions on Wall Street stand as firewall to that perspective. However, that's just a capitalist reality, and I've yet to see any candidate stand in true blue opposition to that world beyond empty rhetoric.
 
I completely forgot to mention foreign policy. Just don't see the 'hawk' angle unless you consider intervention in and of itself a radical exercise. As Secretary of State her actions were largely benign; sanctions, diplomatic angling, negotiating. Far from a Powell or Kissinger or even an Albright.
 

just like every other Clinton story of the past 25 years.
Show something troubling with some legs. Then I'll again be at least interested
...................................................................................

So as near as I can tell, Chagoury (a) is tied up in some of the less savory aspects of Lebanese politics, (b) has contributed to the Clinton Foundation, and (c) wanted to discuss Lebanon once with someone at State, but never did. Later on, he had trouble getting a US visa thanks to suspicions of past connections with Hezbollah, which Chagoury denies

" ... but never did."

seems to be a common thread running through all of these stories.
Again, for over 25 years.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dr...hillary-and-clinton-foundation-turns-out-be-n
....
let me add, tabloids are reporting alicia keys sans makeup at VMA's last night
 
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