Implications of the Trade

[thethe]

Yes, imo.

I know you think the FO walks on water... but a simple phone call is simply a matter of respect. When Hart said we "assumed" we couldn't afford him, then he lost a lot of credibility.

But I recognize you are incapable of any objective thought, so the comment was more for others on the board

So do you feel every player should be contacted before they are traded?

Does the player have any responsiblity for making it known that they want to stay long term? How about his side approaching the front office?

I know you think the FO has ascended from hell but a simple phone call from Heywards camp would have worked. When Heyward "assumed" the Braves would cave to his earlier demands then he lost a lot of crediblity.

But, I recognize you are incapable of any objective thought when it comes to the matter of Heyward and the front office.

 

[yeezus]

There had, in fact, been contract conversations in the past. The price was high, and the ability to get Miller made it a fairly easy decision.

I don't agree they treated him poorly.

 

[thethe]

There had, in fact, been contract conversations in the past. The price was high, and the ability to get Miller made it a fairly easy decision.

I don't agree they treated him poorly.

They didn't but some in the community believe that Jason deserved special treatment above anyone else. The Braves have a business and a team to run and couldn't wait for Heyward to decide what he wanted to do. I wish it would have worked out and I hope the two sides can put aside their differences and continue a new relationship. But, the idea the Braves treated him poorly is the rankness of hate towards the front office.

 

[nsacpi]

Cliff Lee gave Philly a discount. There have been others.

I can't think of any FA in recent memory who took less to play in a certain place. I would be shocked if that happened, so we're probably looking at paying top dollar for any player we go after.

It will be interesting to see how the market falls, but I think if we really want to compete in 2016-2017, we're going to have to somehow find at least one really good SP and at least one really good bat.

 

[sturg33]

So do you feel every player should be contacted before they are traded?

Does the player have any responsiblity for making it known that they want to stay long term? How about his side approaching the front office?

I know you think the FO has ascended from hell but a simple phone call from Heywards camp would have worked. When Heyward "assumed" the Braves would cave to his earlier demands then he lost a lot of crediblity.

But, I recognize you are incapable of any objective thought when it comes to the matter of Heyward and the front office.

No I don't. But when talking about a fan favorite - and someone who - by many accounts - will be the highest sought after FA on the market this season - I think a phone call is worth it.

Heyward apparently did tell Wren he wanted to stay long term. Wren was fired.

I don't want to get into these same arguments before. I thought the fact that Hart didn't communicate with Heyward at all was a laughable oversight. Simply "Hey, we want to keep you - but if we can't work out an extension that works financially, we're planning to trade you. Are you interested in discussing a long term deal?"

That's pretty simply due diligence that was not done. He was also trade din November so it's not like Hart's back was against the wall

 

[thethe]

No I don't. But when talking about a fan favorite - and someone who - by many accounts - will be the highest sought after FA on the market this season - I think a phone call is worth it.

Heyward apparently did tell Wren he wanted to stay long term. Wren was fired.

I don't want to get into these same arguments before. I thought the fact that Hart didn't communicate with Heyward at all was a laughable oversight. Simply "Hey, we want to keep you - but if we can't work out an extension that works financially, we're planning to trade you. Are you interested in discussing a long term deal?"

That's pretty simply due diligence that was not done. He was also trade din November so it's not like Hart's back was against the wall

The Braves got a tremendous offer for 1 year worth of Heyward plus a conditional first round pick. Hart could not pass up that offer and I'm happy that he didn't.

So in the past when Heyward and the Braves discussed contract figures do you think that Jason was ready to change his demands? Jason isn't stupid, he knows how much he would get on the open market. The Braves didn't agree with that valuation. I don't blame Heyward for going to FA. He would be stupid not to.

 

[smootness]

Cliff Lee gave Philly a discount. There have been others.

He got 5 years/$120 million, so I'm not sure how much of a discount that was in 2010. He may not have taken the absolute best offer, but he got pretty close to market value.

 

[smootness]

Yes, imo.

I know you think the FO walks on water... but a simple phone call is simply a matter of respect. When Hart said we "assumed" we couldn't afford him, then he lost a lot of credibility.

But I recognize you are incapable of any objective thought, so the comment was more for others on the board

I don't know exactly how it went down, but it is obvious Heyward wasn't happy about it. That said, I'm not sure many players are thrilled the moment they're traded.

I agree that it sounds like we may have been able to handle it better, but I doubt that comes into play much during his free agency talks. If we pay him as much or more than other teams are offering, he'll listen. It's a business.

 

[Chico]

I don't think ace pitchers are easier to find than guys like Heyward (or somewhat comparable). Price is also a proven, consistent difference-maker.

The difference in risks between is Heyward and Olivera is a whole lot of money. We aren't risking much money on Olivera. Hoping Heyward becomes an impact bat at $25MM is a pretty big gamble. I do see it happening at some point, but it's a big gamble.

Right now pitching is easier to find than hitting. However, aces are not that easy to find, and come playoff time good pitching wins over good hitting.

 

[sturg33]

I don't know exactly how it went down, but it is obvious Heyward wasn't happy about it. That said, I'm not sure many players are thrilled the moment they're traded.

I agree that it sounds like we may have been able to handle it better, but I doubt that comes into play much during his free agency talks. If we pay him as much or more than other teams are offering, he'll listen. It's a business.

Hope you're right.

I assume a lot of the big market teams will be in on him.

 

[smootness]

Right now pitching is easier to find than hitting. However, aces are not that easy to find, and come playoff time good pitching wins over good hitting.

Every time I see this, I just get more depressed about our number of WS titles during our run. I mean, dang...3 first-ballot HOFers in the rotation for 7 years, plust about 5 more with at least 2, and one WS.

 

[smootness]

Hope you're right.

I assume a lot of the big market teams will be in on him.

Definitely. I would be surprised if we bid more than anybody else, but I think there's a chance we're in the middle of the pack offering him a similar amount. Let's hope his memories here, Freeman, and the fact that we drafted and developed him wins out over any ill will over the way the trade went down.

 

[sturg33]

The Braves got a tremendous offer for 1 year worth of Heyward plus a conditional first round pick. Hart could not pass up that offer and I'm happy that he didn't.

So in the past when Heyward and the Braves discussed contract figures do you think that Jason was ready to change his demands? Jason isn't stupid, he knows how much he would get on the open market. The Braves didn't agree with that valuation. I don't blame Heyward for going to FA. He would be stupid not to.

Is it so hard to admit that Hart should've made a phone call?

 

[thethe]

Is it so hard to admit that Hart should've made a phone call?

What is there to admit? Do you think its a universal truth that he should have?

Is it so hard to admit that when the Braves were handing out extensions like hot cakes that Heyward clearly valued himself much higher than the Braves did?

 

[sturg33]

What is there to admit? Do you think its a universal truth that he should have?

Is it so hard to admit that when the Braves were handing out extensions like hot cakes that Heyward clearly valued himself much higher than the Braves did?

What is there to admit? That in the best interest of the Braves, and out of respect to Heyward, Hart should have called him.

I'm happy to admit that Heyward priced himself too high with Wren. Wren basically said he wanted to give him a fully healthy year so they can accurately assess his fair value. It seems both Heyward and Wren were happy with that. But after a less-than-outstanding season, Heyward may have been willing to revise his demands a bit lower to ensure the huge contract. We don't know that bc our GM decided to assume

 

[ramadon101]

What is there to admit? That in the best interest of the Braves, and out of respect to Heyward, Hart should have called him.

I'm happy to admit that Heyward priced himself too high with Wren. Wren basically said he wanted to give him a fully healthy year so they can accurately assess his fair value. It seems both Heyward and Wren were happy with that. But after a less-than-outstanding season, Heyward may have been willing to revise his demands a bit lower to ensure the huge contract. We don't know that bc our GM decided to assume

I have no knowledge of whether Heyward was himself contacted (I would imagine he was, but I don't know and doing so would be pure conjecture on my part). However Casey Close was fully engaged in several calls and Close clearly indicated a price range that was well north of what the Braves felt comfortable with. Perhaps they "assumed" Close was speaking for his client (a justifiable assumption given the agent-player relationship) but given the fact that the Braves had so many ties with Heyward, I would have hoped they also reached out to him personally to ask if he was willing to budge on the range being proposed by his agent. So I definitely agree with that assertion (if it, in fact, did not happen).

 

[Enscheff]

The way I look at it is: Would we be better off signing Heyward/Buehrle or Price/Zobrist assuming the combined contracts are about the same and that we have the budget to do something like that. I don't think it is a slam dunk that one of those options is better than the other. So it is an interesting topic to debate. There are other options involving the same expenditures that might be even better.

I think Heyward/Buehrle is the slam dunk better option. The Braves have proven over the last year that it is MUCH easier to acquire TOR potential pitching prospects than it is to acquire ANY offense in the current MLB environment. They have several TOR options at various stages of development (Miller, Teheran, Wisler, Folty, Touki, Allard, Fried, etc) and basically nothing as far as impact bats go. Hell, they had to trade away a young proven MOR starter plus a top 50 prospect just to get a guy with a chance of being an impact bat in Olivera. That is how hard it is to acquire offense right now.

Personally, I would rather take the middle ground and do something like Cespedes/Kazmir, but I would prefer to see the bulk of the FA money spent on offense no matter who it is (provided the guy isn't garbage, obviously).

 

[mfree80]

You guys are way too eager to accept the posturing that goes on as fact.

The Braves knew what Jason wanted and Jason knew what the Braves were willing to pay... posturing notwithstanding.

Jason didn't want to sound greedy so he made carefully worded statements to shift blame to the Braves.

We have hashed and rehashed this too many times. Nothing sinister to see here despite the efforts of some to create villains.

 

[Heyward]

Trying to find comps...Hunter Pence got 18.5 million in 2014 and contracts have gone up since then. Heyward Is vastly superior to Pence and thus, I don't know if Heyward gets 25, but he should get somewhere close and certainly gets more than 20 million per year.

Unless you factor in defense a ton, im not sure about that.

Pence has had 5 straight 20+ HR seasons.

Heyward has had 1 in his entire career, maybe he gets hot to end the year.

Pence contract looked bad a few years ago, looks like a pretty good one now.

 

[Heyward]

You just say stuff you make yourself feel better.

Just to put some facts on paper:

Players peak about 27 years old

Bigger players regress at pretty much the same rate as smaller players

Bad defensive players regress much worse than good defensive players. (ie good defensive player becomes better all around players than good offensive players; the axis is about age 32)

High strikeout players have a much smoother aging curve than low strikeout players (high strikeout guys peak a year earlier, but don't hit the skids as bad as low strikeout guys)

In other words, there is no data to suggest Heyward is going to regress any more than other players in their 30s (Heyward is still years away from being at an age where you would expect regression)

Heyward is not an impact bat, but the degree to which the Braves homers try to act like he's at offensively is ludicrous. Since 2012, Heyward is at .270/.345/.432, which is on par with Cespedes, who is about to get paid as well. And in terms of WAR, he's been the 4th best OF in baseball during that time. (you could argue defense is weighed too heavily, but he's still up there nonetheless)

Do people criticize Alex Gordon's lack of offense to this degree? THey are virtually the same player.

Alex Gordon doesnt make 25 mil a year, bud.