Implications of the Trade

Heyward had a better WAR than Puig, Goldy, Rizzo, Gomez, Tulo along with many others last year. He was not better than them last year.

We've been over this, his defense clearly over-inflates his WAR-value.

LaGares had the 7th highest WAR last year in the NL, it's an over-inflated stat due to defense.

Simmons had the 4th highest WAR in 2013. Mostly because of defense derp derp.

We won 96 games in 2013, when we didn't seem to have a team really capable of that. There's a reason we won that many games...in part because guys like Simmons and Heyward were more valuable than people think.

If you don't think Simmons' defense at SS wins as many games as a pretty good hitter, I don't know what to tell you.
 
Fair point, i think he'll try to have an opt out clause in his deal so he can cash out one more time.

Ramadon i think said thats what he wanted.

Wouldn't it be nice if the teams also added an opt out clause? "Okay player X, you want an opt out clause at mid contract so you can leave if you're doing better, we want one too to protect ourselves if you start to suck."
 
We won 96 games in 2013, when we didn't seem to have a team really capable of that. There's a reason we won that many games...in part because guys like Simmons and Heyward were more valuable than people think.

If you don't think Simmons' defense at SS wins as many games as a pretty good hitter, I don't know what to tell you.

We also got pretty lucky that year, as our run differential didn't really say "96 wins." Ask giles about it, he told us plenty of times back then.
 
Wouldn't it be nice if the teams also added an opt out clause? "Okay player X, you want an opt out clause at mid contract so you can leave if you're doing better, we want one too to protect ourselves if you start to suck."

Kinda sounds like a good idea to me, but I can't see anyone signing that contract.
 
I don't mind the opt out clause. If we sign a guy for 7 years and we get his best effort for 4 years, so he can opt out and go for more money, I'm good with that.
 
Last year seems right as far as our outdoing our run differential. That 2013 team though. It was really good. Best team we had since our streak of division titles ended imo.

Yeah, the playoffs that year really sucked. And that team was so up-and-down. But really good all-around.
 
He'll certainly be well paid by someone, does not mean he's worth it.

And what if he has years similar to 13-14, is he still worth 25-28 mil a year?

He has a good average, im just not sure you give someone essentially top dollar when they arent a middle of the order bat.

Well, he's had roughly 1 year that's been worth less than 25 million; so?

So far we have "what if Heyward was not good at defense" "what if he goes into a slump" I will add another, what would Heyward be worth if he cut off his middle finger? SEE HE"S NOT WORTH $20 MILLION, HUH!
 
Wouldn't it be nice if the teams also added an opt out clause? "Okay player X, you want an opt out clause at mid contract so you can leave if you're doing better, we want one too to protect ourselves if you start to suck."

Teams put in team options all the time.
 
What is the debate?

Is it Heyward will get paid? Quick answer: He will. I'm guessing 8/$200 MM. Probably an opt out for him after 4 years, but the back end of contract will probably be richer. The market is what the market is and it is inflating. But don't use Melvin Upton as an example. Wren bid against himself and added about $2 MM AAV and a fifth guaranteed year to Upton's contract above what anyone else seemed to be offering. One can contend that's the market; I would contend Wren and McGuirk (and don't let Cox off the hook) created a distortion in the market. I think a more reliable indicator of the inflation in the market is the fact that Mike Minor won his arbitration case last year after totally stinking in 2014.

Is the debate that we should have found a way to keep Heyward? It would have been nice, but the lack of green eyeshades in the Braves' front office made that really difficult. If Heyward was viewed as an anchor player, they should have never signed Melvin Upton. Uggla's extension (which I didn't particularly agree with) was at least structured to end the year Heyward was scheduled to hit free agency. Melvin Upton's was not. Add to that the below market buyouts of free agency for Simmons, Teheran, Kimbrel, and Chris Johnson and a lot of money got soaked up. Other than the Melvin Upton deal (and thewupk can contend that wasn't a bad deal, but giving $15 MM per year to a non-anchor player is an iffy investment if your overall budget is constrained), other deals, while smaller in magnitude, still committed budget dollars that could have gone to Heyward. What gets lost in this--and I'm not pounding on Wren here because I think McGuirk is equally guilty--is that you can only spend a dollar once and a dollar spent on anyone else at any position was a dollar that couldn't be given to Heyward.

thethe is right. Heyward bet on himself and it appears that he was right to do that. Hart is the guy who traded Heyward so he's going to get beat up, but I think he's getting beat up for a near intractable situation that he inherited. In retrospect, I think the only thing that Hart should have been done differently is that the Kimbrel/Melvin deal should have led off the off-season. That could have created the budget space necessary to have serious negotiations with Heyward. It wouldn't have been a guarantee of anything and Heyward was (and is) going to be expensive. Hart gets grilled a bit for supposedly not meeting with Heyward and Close, but if Heyward turned down a Freeman-esque contract already, it was pretty easy to gauge what the overall bounds of Heyward's demands were going to be and they were going to exceed what the Braves could do. Hence, the only question that needs to be answered is what is worth more: trade or draft pick. I think what Hart could have realistically done differently is unload other commitments and push resources toward Heyward.

Were we lucky or unlucky in 2013? Probably a bit of both. Lucky in the larger sense because Simmons, Chris Johnson, and maybe Freeman had career years (hard to tell on Freeman). Unlucky with Uggla's near total collapse in the second half of the season. Melvin stunk, but Schafer had his career months early in the season. Gattis came out of nowhere as well. Looking back, it was kind of a magical year.
 
What is the debate?

Is it Heyward will get paid? Quick answer: He will. I'm guessing 8/$200 MM. Probably an opt out for him after 4 years, but the back end of contract will probably be richer. The market is what the market is and it is inflating. But don't use Melvin Upton as an example. Wren bid against himself and added about $2 MM AAV and a fifth guaranteed year to Upton's contract above what anyone else seemed to be offering. One can contend that's the market; I would contend Wren and McGuirk (and don't let Cox off the hook) created a distortion in the market. I think a more reliable indicator of the inflation in the market is the fact that Mike Minor won his arbitration case last year after totally stinking in 2014.

Is the debate that we should have found a way to keep Heyward? It would have been nice, but the lack of green eyeshades in the Braves' front office made that really difficult. If Heyward was viewed as an anchor player, they should have never signed Melvin Upton. Uggla's extension (which I didn't particularly agree with) was at least structured to end the year Heyward was scheduled to hit free agency. Melvin Upton's was not. Add to that the below market buyouts of free agency for Simmons, Teheran, Kimbrel, and Chris Johnson and a lot of money got soaked up. Other than the Melvin Upton deal (and thewupk can contend that wasn't a bad deal, but giving $15 MM per year to a non-anchor player is an iffy investment if your overall budget is constrained), other deals, while smaller in magnitude, still committed budget dollars that could have gone to Heyward. What gets lost in this--and I'm not pounding on Wren here because I think McGuirk is equally guilty--is that you can only spend a dollar once and a dollar spent on anyone else at any position was a dollar that couldn't be given to Heyward.

thethe is right. Heyward bet on himself and it appears that he was right to do that. Hart is the guy who traded Heyward so he's going to get beat up, but I think he's getting beat up for a near intractable situation that he inherited. In retrospect, I think the only thing that Hart should have been done differently is that the Kimbrel/Melvin deal should have led off the off-season. That could have created the budget space necessary to have serious negotiations with Heyward. It wouldn't have been a guarantee of anything and Heyward was (and is) going to be expensive. Hart gets grilled a bit for supposedly not meeting with Heyward and Close, but if Heyward turned down a Freeman-esque contract already, it was pretty easy to gauge what the overall bounds of Heyward's demands were going to be and they were going to exceed what the Braves could do. Hence, the only question that needs to be answered is what is worth more: trade or draft pick. I think what Hart could have realistically be done differently is unload other commitments and push resources toward Heyward.

Were we lucky or unlucky in 2013? Probably a bit of both. Lucky in the larger sense because Simmons, Chris Johnson, and maybe Freeman had career years (hard to tell on Freeman). Unlucky with Uggla's near total collapse in the second half of the season. Melvin stunk, but Schafer had his career months early in the season. Gattis came out of nowhere as well. Looking back, it was kind of a magical year.

I think the debate should be whether or not Hart pushed too many valuable resources towards pitching - and now we get screwed with the Alex Wood deal.

If you're going to trade Heyward, Upton, Kimbrel, and Gattis - I'd say you need to get an impact bat in return. Instead, we got more and more pitchers. Then have to trade our arguably best pitcher + our arguably best prospect (hitter) in order to get a 30 year old who's never had an at bat.
 
I think the debate should be whether or not Hart pushed too many valuable resources towards pitching - and now we get screwed with the Alex Wood deal.

If you're going to trade Heyward, Upton, Kimbrel, and Gattis - I'd say you need to get an impact bat in return. Instead, we got more and more pitchers. Then have to trade our arguably best pitcher + our arguably best prospect (hitter) in order to get a 30 year old who's never had an at bat.

Good point. I generally understand the Heyward deal, but it would have been nice to get either Piscotty or Grichuk in the deal even if we had to add another piece.
 
The point boils down to the Braves not wanting to pay Heyward what it would take to sign him. Thus, they decided to trade him for a pitcher (likely a 2-3 type starter with a few more years left on his deal). There is no need to say dumb stuff about Heyward not being worth xxxxxxxx, because you are simply trying to justify the deal by negating the type of player Heyward is. If you are happy with Miller/Jenkins as the return, sobeit. Heyward is a really good player and will get a **** ton of money; that's simply the bottom line. This he only gets paid for defense and yada yada yads is simply dumb.

Its similar to the Olivera trade. There is no need to knock Wood; he's a hell of a young starter. Claiming he's reached his peak or is about to blow his shoulder out is simply trying to make yourself feel better about the deal.
 
The point boils down to the Braves not wanting to pay Heyward what it would take to sign him. Thus, they decided to trade him for a pitcher (likely a 2-3 type starter with a few more years left on his deal). There is no need to say dumb stuff about Heyward not being worth xxxxxxxx, because you are simply trying to justify the deal by negating the type of player Heyward is. If you are happy with Miller/Jenkins as the return, sobeit. Heyward is a really good player and will get a **** ton of money; that's simply the bottom line. This he only gets paid for defense and yada yada yads is simply dumb.

Its similar to the Olivera trade. There is no need to knock Wood; he's a hell of a young starter. Claiming he's reached his peak or is about to blow his shoulder out is simply trying to make yourself feel better about the deal.

I like the trade on our end no matter if Heyward gets paid big time or not. I just don't think he's worth it. It's just an opinion. There's a good chance a team with money to spend might think he's worth it.
 
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