Is all this Braves' rebuilding really necessary?

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Hawk

<B>Co-Owner, BravesCenter</B>
Mark Bradley: Is all this Braves' rebuilding really necessary?

It has been clear from the day of Frank Wren’s “termination” that two of the three Johns — team presidents Hart and Schuerholz — hate every single thing the former general manager ever did. (It’s less clear whether assistant GM John Coppollela does. He did, after all, work for Wren.) But were the Braves as an organization really as wretched as the new/old guys would have us believe? Is a total tear-down of a team that won 94 games in 2012 and 96 in 2013 necessary?

It was only 11 months ago that Wren was being lauded, in this space but not only in this space, for locking up Freddie Freeman, Julio Teheran, Andrelton Simmons and Craig Kimbrel. Now each of the above — except for Teheran; as a young pitcher, he’s exempt — has to wonder if he’ll be next out the door and, beyond that, if he really wants to stay and play for a team that’s guaranteed to lose big.

Forget challenging Washington for first in the National League East. The challenge for the 2015 Braves will be to fight off Philadelphia for fourth place in a five-team division. The Phillies stand as a case study as to what will happen if a team waits too long to rebuild: Their players got so old and so pricey that nobody wants any of them except for Cole Hamels. Philly became that worst possible entity — a bad old team.

The Braves, however, weren’t old. Their 2014 roster was the second-youngest in the majors, trailing only Houston’s. Those Braves fell apart at the end, but they were tied for first place at the All-Star break. Even if you believe Wren was the dunce of dunces, was it reasonable to assume that his first losing season since 2008 — the year after he’d inherited the team from Schuerholz — was evidence the Braves were doomed to more losing?

I have no issue with wholesale rebuilding when it’s warranted. I’m not sure this was. But I’m reasonably sure the new regime has doomed the Braves, at least in the short term, to loads of losing.

 
Posted this in the Gattis trade thread:
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And I'm not really here to defend Wren, but he fielded competitive teams on a mid-tier budget nearly every season he was here.

Your priorities are different when it comes to trying to make the playoffs every year versus rebuilding.

We had 2 losing seasons under Wren. Last year and 2008 which was his first full year as GM.

Hart and Co. have already adamantly decided that we're gutting the team and rebuilding, which is why they're acquiring all these prospects. Acquiring all these prospects in this bulk is not something you do when you're trying to compete every year on a strict budget unless you're Oakland. This isn't the Ted Turner Braves that had money to be top in the league in team payroll + money to outbid for international free agents, + money to throw at big draft prospects. If a 17 year old Andruw Jones was an international free agent right now, do you think the Braves would have the resources to bid for him or would it be risky for a franchise that's mid-tier in payroll and wanting to bid on a prospect of his caliber? The Braves were trailblazers in the 90's for international scouting, and other teams have caught on and the teams who now have more money to spend are using it to their advantage like LAD. The Cubs built an academy in the Dominican so they can try and get first dibs on whatever talent they can get their hands on.

I get annoyed by people saying "look at what Wren did to our farm". Wren's priority was to put a competitive team in the window provided around the core while they were still young and cheap. He did that by plugging in players like Gattis, Simmons, Kimbrel, Justin Upton, Wood, etc. Now Hart are doing the same thing the Braves did in 2008. Not try to compete but field a team competitive enough to put a few butts in the seats but not one that's expected to fight for the division, maybe wild card if they can get hot (there's still some great pitching on this team that could carry us). Wait for 2 years (2010 was the year Heyward showed up and the new wave was coming in) and watch your cheap young talent for a few years.
 
The idea of the Braves being the second youngest team does not account for the fact that two of the key core pieces were about to leave in FA and leave this organization with nothing but two late first round picks. Of course this team had a shot at competing in 2015 with the team as it was constructed. The talent was deep. But, if it became clear to the front office that Jason/Justin were not re-signing for anyting less than market then I don't see how this rebuild was not the obvious decision. You really want to risk the fate of the franchise in the future years with just two first round picks for dynamic players? Just Shelby Miller alone was more valueable than the two comp picks we would have receved.
 
I think it was absolutely necessary if the goal is to put a playoff contender out there in 2017 and beyond. And obviously that's the stated goal. We needed to rebuild the farm system and find affordable starting pitching for the 2017 season. That part is done, especially after this year's draft. Now suddenly Hart is in a position where he can go out and maybe even make a run at Heyward, Fowler or Upton this offseason because he has that young pitching now.
 
thethe said:
The idea of the Braves being the second youngest team does not account for the fact that two of the key core pieces were about to leave in FA and leave this organization with nothing but two late first round picks. Of course this team had a shot at competing in 2015 with the team as it was constructed. The talent was deep. But, if it became clear to the front office that Jason/Justin were not re-signing for anyting less than market then I don't see how this rebuild was not the obvious decision. You really want to risk the fate of the franchise in the future years with just two first round picks for dynamic players? Just Shelby Miller alone was more valueable than the two comp picks we would have receved.
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Shelby Miller likely won't be here by the time we are ready to compete again.
 
A successful opening to Cobb County is the most important thing for this franchise. Winning in 2015 pales in comparison to that goal. If Cobb goes well and the Braves draw an extra 500K fans per year that would be tremendous for this franchise.
 
thethe said:
The idea of the Braves being the second youngest team does not account for the fact that two of the key core pieces were about to leave in FA and leave this organization with nothing but two late first round picks. Of course this team had a shot at competing in 2015 with the team as it was constructed. The talent was deep. But, if it became clear to the front office that Jason/Justin were not re-signing for anyting less than market then I don't see how this rebuild was not the obvious decision. You really want to risk the fate of the franchise in the future years with just two first round picks for dynamic players? Just Shelby Miller alone was more valueable than the two comp picks we would have receved.
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Then trade Kimbrel, Freeman, and Simmons too.

Kimbrel is kind of useless at this point. Why are we keeping him if we aren't going to score any runs to get him a lead or expect to contend? He hits free agency after 2017. Freeman can't protect himself in the lineup. And he's got a very nice deal, so you could probably get a better haul than Gattis for him. Simmons would net a decent haul too since he's still affordable.

JS and Cox love pitching so I don't see Teheran going anywhere.
 
thewupk said:
Shelby Miller likely won't be here by the time we are ready to compete again.
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Possible, or the Braves give him an extension like the one they gave to Teheran. Or he is flipped after Roger works his magic for a great young position prospect and this stable of young pitching is able to replenish that loss on the major league team.
 
Heywood said:
Then trade Kimbrel, Freeman, and Simmons too.

Kimbrel is kind of useless at this point. Why are we keeping him if we aren't going to score any runs to get him a lead or expect to contend? He hits free agency after 2017. Freeman can't protect himself in the lineup. And he's got a very nice deal, so you could probably get a better haul than Gattis for him. Simmons would net a decent haul too since he's still affordable.

JS and Cox love pitching so I don't see Teheran going anywhere.
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I think Kimbrel will absolutely be traded at hte deadline. I hope it doesn't happen because I'd like to have some more legacy Braves and we are going to be wishing we have a Kimbrel when this team is really good in 2017.

I don't get trading Freeman at all. Guy is a baby and still have 7+ years of great ball and the fact that he can actually hit a baseball consistently (unlike Heyward) tells me that he more than likely will age well and could be good into his mid 30's.
 
gilesfan said:
How often does rebuilding actually work in anything less than 5-10 years? I can't think of many examples of teams trading their best players for prospects and competing within 5 years. Anyone?
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I don't know and really don't care to be honest with you. I know the Braves would have been in bad shape in a couple of years if they didn't make these trades. Now not only have they rebuilt the farm system, they've also cleared a lot of payroll. By the time 2017 gets here BJ Upton's contract will be off the books and the Braves should be in a much better position to get the players they need to compete.
 
1. The only way to get good during a re-build is to suck so bad that Bryce Harper and Stephen Strasburg falls into your lap... then it takes a few more years for them to make it to you

2. I'm getting really aggravated about the "Upton/Heward weren't gonna sign for less than market value." Well what do you think we're going to have to pay for free agent players? Less than market? Get real.

If we want to rebuild for 2017, The organization SHOULD have dealt Upton, Kimbrel, and Gattis, and signed Heyward to a long term deal. They should have backed up the truck for Moconda. These moves make sense for a team trying to win in 2 years.

Instead, we dumped everyone for 24 injured pitchers.
 
sturg33 said:
1. The only way to get good during a re-build is to suck so bad that Bryce Harper and Stephen Strasburg falls into your lap... then it takes a few more years for them to make it to you

2. I'm getting really aggravated about the "Upton/Heward weren't gonna sign for less than market value." Well what do you think we're going to have to pay for free agent players? Less than market? Get real.

If we want to rebuild for 2017, The organization SHOULD have dealt Upton, Kimbrel, and Gattis, and signed Heyward to a long term deal. They should have backed up the truck for Moconda. These moves make sense for a team trying to win in 2 years.

Instead, we dumped everyone for 24 injured pitchers.
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That's probably what I would have done.
 
Pay Heyward 25 million per year when he hasn't shown hr can consistently hit? That's a risky proposition but not necessarily a wrong one.
 
thethe said:
Pay Heyward 25 million per year when he hasn't shown hr can consistently hit? That's a risky proposition but not necessarily a wrong one.
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We wasted Heyward in the leadoff spot for almost 2 full seasons.

Put Heyward in the 3 spot where he was supposed to be, and I'm certain he would put up comparable if not better numbers than Freeman.
 
Heywood said:
We wasted Heyward in the leadoff spot for almost 2 full seasons.

Put Heyward in the 3 spot where he was supposed to be, and I'm certain he would put up comparable if not better numbers than Freeman.
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So you are taking rhe stance that his lack of power stemmed from changing his approach to a leadoff hitter?
 
thethe said:
So you are taking rhe stance that his lack of power stemmed from changing his approach to a leadoff hitter?
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Absolutely.

Taking more pitches in an effort to maximize your chances of getting on base (walking more), versus taking bigger cuts on pitches close in the zone to drive the ball more is a huge difference in mindset.

Also it's different if you're Freeman and you have Heyward already on base, versus Heyward coming to bat in the 4th inning with nobody on base because 3 pitchers hit before him (Simmons/Uggla, BJ, Pitcher).

Let's not even forget the many times Jason had Simmons and BJ hitting behind him in the 2 hole. At least Freeman had Justin or Gattis in the 4th/5th hole consistently.
 
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