Is the rebuild in trouble?

[Enscheff]

You'd have won a few more games but no important ones and have less of a farm system. And since you committed to winning without nearly enough talent you may well have drafted for floor and traded prospects.

Less of a farm system? The Braves still would have had Albies, Acuna and Maitan, and could have still drafted Allard, Soroka, and probably Anderson (who would have almost certainly dropped to them in the middle of the 1st round).

They would have Simmons instead of Swanson, and someone else in CF instead of Inciarte. And if they had decided to trade Heyward and keep JUp, they would potentially have Swanson and Inciarte as well.

Literally nothing they got as a result of the rebuild has amounted to much of anything...at all.

If we are playing the hindsight game that seems to popular around here, I think I would have preferred to see how that alternate reality went rather than what we have seen instead.

 

[smootness]

Less of a farm system? The Braves still would have had Albies, Acuna and Maitan, and could have still drafted Allard, Soroka, and probably Anderson (who would have almost certainly dropped to them in the middle of the 1st round).

They would have Simmons instead of Swanson, and someone else in CF instead of Inciarte. And if they had decided to trade Heyward and keep JUp, they would potentially have Swanson and Inciarte as well.

Literally nothing they got as a result of the rebuild has amounted to much of anything...at all.

If we are playing the hindsight game that seems to popular around here, I think I would have preferred to see how that alternate reality went rather than what we have seen instead.

It still would have been less of a farm system. You're essentially arguing that it wouldn't have been much less of a farm system, but there would still be a difference.

It is likely we would not have the following:
Newcomb
Fried
Gohara
Wentz
Muller
Touki
Peterson

Sure, most of our top talent would still be around, and we would have added a couple compensatory picks, so maybe we would have still been able to grab guys like Wentz and Muller. But that would still be less of a farm system.

 

[Enscheff]

It still would have been less of a farm system. You're essentially arguing that it wouldn't have been much less of a farm system, but there would still be a difference.

It is likely we would not have the following:
Newcomb
Fried
Gohara
Wentz
Muller
Touki
Peterson

Sure, most of our top talent would still be around, and we would have added a couple compensatory picks, so maybe we would have still been able to grab guys like Wentz and Muller. But that would still be less of a farm system.

Sorry, but that list does nothing but further prove my point.

 

[Horsehide Harry]

We were pretty much guaranteed to go into a rebuild period after 2015 regardless. We just started it a year early to get a jump-start on the rebuild.

True. The Braves should have gone into rebuild mode in 2008 when they cratered to 72-90. If they had done so, they would have got best package available for Tex, instead of insisting on a ML 1B (Kotchman) in return. They probably would have gotten a big return on a declining Chipper (who probably would have gone if a rebuild was in store). Hudson got hurt. The team then had begun to show signs of age and the FO doubled down with several bad contracts like Kawakami, Lowe, the trade for McLouth for Locke, Morton and Gorky's Hernandez (all three are still playing), the trade for Melky Cabrera (giving up their best pitcher in Vasquez), the trade for Uggla, the trade for Justin Upton, the signing of Melvin, the extension for Chris Johnson who they paid for along with Justin all trying to get out of the purgatory of not quite good enough.

If they would have done that, they would have had a McCann/Flowers Catching spot, Locke and Morton for potential rotation pieces, Heyward, Simmons and Freeman, draft and talent acquisition position to grab other pieces and money to add select FA talent.

Instead they chose to ride the wave and hope and watch a lot of the young talent march right through their control years and out the other side to other teams.

Nobody likes to lose or watch a losing team. But sometimes you need someone with the vision and courage to say time to rebuild. The Braves put it off way too long, then tried to soft pedal it when they had no choice because they were facing the opening of a new ballpark.

 

[50PoundHead]

In retrospect, I don't make the trade to get Justin Upton. Prado is banged up now and has a couple more stickers on his suitcase since the trade, but Delgado, Drury, and Ahmed are all contributing for the D-Backs. That trade killed some solid depth. Upton played well for us, but I would have rolled the dice without him.

 

[Russ2dollas]

Sorry, but that list does nothing but further prove my point.

Your being overly simple here to fit your narrative

Folty is part of the rebuild. I'm encouraged by him not sure why u think he is not relevant

I think rio is at least a useful player in a platoon.

Dustin Peterson is going to be a 2+ war player

Gohara and Newcombe are not perfect but they are elite stuff lefties. I think they can each be a Miller type reliever

Fried is close and considered an elite prospect by non braves guys-ex klaw

Inciarte is a legit piece if he hits like this and should not be dismissed

Losing jup for a draft pick is not going to improve the farm

Shelby helped the major league team

Long term we are better than we would be keeping jup heward and Gattis .
Kimbrel we are worse
Simmons I think we will be worse

 

[Russ2dollas]

In retrospect, I don't make the trade to get Justin Upton. Prado is banged up now and has a couple more stickers on his suitcase since the trade, but Delgado, Drury, and Ahmed are all contributing for the D-Backs. That trade killed some solid depth. Upton played well for us, but I would have rolled the dice without him.

That's crazy to me. We dominated that trade and won the next uptown trade.

Those guys are just dudes. I'd rather play comargo than Ahmed for example

 

[smootness]

Sorry, but that list does nothing but further prove my point.

It does. You may not view any of those pieces as huge pieces, but they absolutely have value.

 

[Enscheff]

It does. You may not view any of those pieces as huge pieces, but they absolutely have value.

The question was not if they have value, but if I would rather have seen the Braves try to compete over the last 3 years and have a farm that still consists of Acuna, Albies, Maitan, Allard, Soroka and Anderson...or what they have now.

Personally, I would have rather seen what would have happened without the half-in rebuild and accompanying dog and pony show meant to appease the casual fans.

 

[smootness]

The question was not if they have value, but if I would rather have seen the Braves try to compete over the last 3 years and have a farm that still consists of Acuna, Albies, Maitan, Allard, Soroka and Anderson...or what they have now.

Personally, I would have rather seen what would have happened without the half-in rebuild and accompanying dog and pony show meant to appease the casual fans.

No, cack simply said they would have less of a farm system. That's the statement you took issue with. Again, you can argue degrees, but it is true that they would have less of a farm system.

 

[Enscheff]

No, cack simply said they would have less of a farm system. That's the statement you took issue with. Again, you can argue degrees, but it is true that they would have less of a farm system.

Correct, they would have went from Top 2-3 to Top 5.

Good thing that rebuild happened!

 

[smootness]

Correct, they would have went from Top 2-3 to Top 5.

Good thing that rebuild happened!

This is where you go off the rails. I was never attempting to say anything about the rebuild. I simply said that the statement you took issue with was correct. But because I had the audacity to do that, it means I think the rebuild is all blueberries and rainbow farts and Coppy is the smartest man to walk the face of the earth.

And we're #1, not top 2-3. Nice try on that.

 

[Knucksie]

Don't recall too many posters clamoring for BJ to remain back then.

 

[auyushu]

Don't recall too many posters clamoring for BJ to remain back then.

That's because most of them bought the competing in 2017 nonsense that was being spread by the front office. Most people probably thought that money being saved would be put towards a contending team.

 

[Southcack77]

Less of a farm system? The Braves still would have had Albies, Acuna and Maitan, and could have still drafted Allard, Soroka, and probably Anderson (who would have almost certainly dropped to them in the middle of the 1st round).

They would have Simmons instead of Swanson, and someone else in CF instead of Inciarte. And if they had decided to trade Heyward and keep JUp, they would potentially have Swanson and Inciarte as well.

Literally nothing they got as a result of the rebuild has amounted to much of anything...at all.

If we are playing the hindsight game that seems to popular around here, I think I would have preferred to see how that alternate reality went rather than what we have seen instead.

Obviously, none of the guys you now tout as the heart of the Braves system have done anything either.

Without the tear down and devotion to the strategy, the Braves would arguably (or in some cases inarguably) would be without:

Swanson

Inciarte

Folty

J. Peterson

Wisler

Blair

Newcomb (#5)

Fried (#8)

Demeritte (#9)

Gohara (#10)

touissant (#11)

Riley (#12)

Wentz (#13)

arguably Pache (#14) since they traded Paroubeck for the int'l slot money to sign him)

Muller (#16)

Peterson (#17)

Sanchex (#19)

Cruz (#20) another international oversign

Minter (#21)

Ruiz (#22)

Jackson (#23)

Morris (#26)

I'm pretty sure that qualifies as less of a farm system.

 

[Southcack77]

The question was not if they have value, but if I would rather have seen the Braves try to compete over the last 3 years and have a farm that still consists of Acuna, Albies, Maitan, Allard, Soroka and Anderson...or what they have now.

Personally, I would have rather seen what would have happened without the half-in rebuild and accompanying dog and pony show meant to appease the casual fans.

No one actually asked that question.

 

[Enscheff]

No one actually asked that question.

Reading comprehension. Work on it.

Sturg said:

"I would have tried to compete in 2015. "

To which you replied:

"You'd have won a few more games but no important ones and have less of a farm system"

And I replied with:

"I would have preferred to see how that alternate reality went rather than what we have seen instead"

So yes, the question at hand was absolutely whether or not we would have rather seen the Braves try to compete in 2015.

I realize it is hard for derptards to focus on the topic at hand, but please try to follow along.

 

[Preacher]

Correct, they would have went from Top 2-3 to Top 5.

Good thing that rebuild happened!

I think this is such a silly argument, we had to rebuild, so many of those assets we had weren't going to re-sign here and then what??

We'd be a bad team with a much shallower farm system if we had continued trying to compete without the capacity to do so. If we continued to be mediocre we wouldn't have had he draft capital to do what we have done the last couple years, both from having lower picks and from having less slot money, we also wouldn't have made a lot of the really good smaller deals, the ones that acquired players like TD because we'd be buying at the deadline and not selling.

Additionally when you are trying to compete you end up making deadline deals for pieces in the bullpen and bench, that would have further sapped our depth.

There's no way our farm system would like as strong as it does now if we had tried to compete. You would have had a couple more mediocre season and a worse system. Awesome.

Now you can argue against aspects of the rebuild, and that's certainly fair.

 

[Southcack77]

True. The Braves should have gone into rebuild mode in 2008 when they cratered to 72-90. If they had done so, they would have got best package available for Tex, instead of insisting on a ML 1B (Kotchman) in return. They probably would have gotten a big return on a declining Chipper (who probably would have gone if a rebuild was in store). Hudson got hurt. The team then had begun to show signs of age and the FO doubled down with several bad contracts like Kawakami, Lowe, the trade for McLouth for Locke, Morton and Gorky's Hernandez (all three are still playing), the trade for Melky Cabrera (giving up their best pitcher in Vasquez), the trade for Uggla, the trade for Justin Upton, the signing of Melvin, the extension for Chris Johnson who they paid for along with Justin all trying to get out of the purgatory of not quite good enough.

If they would have done that, they would have had a McCann/Flowers Catching spot, Locke and Morton for potential rotation pieces, Heyward, Simmons and Freeman, draft and talent acquisition position to grab other pieces and money to add select FA talent.

Instead they chose to ride the wave and hope and watch a lot of the young talent march right through their control years and out the other side to other teams.

Nobody likes to lose or watch a losing team. But sometimes you need someone with the vision and courage to say time to rebuild. The Braves put it off way too long, then tried to soft pedal it when they had no choice because they were facing the opening of a new ballpark.

This is exactly the period where Frank Wren's people say he wanted to rebuild but was told the Braves didn't do that. Or that Liberty didn't. Hard to say.

 

[Southcack77]

Reading comprehension. Work on it.

Sturg said:

"I would have tried to compete in 2015. "

To which you replied:

"You'd have won a few more games but no important ones and have less of a farm system"

And I replied with:

"I would have preferred to see how that alternate reality went rather than what we have seen instead"

So yes, the question at hand was absolutely whether or not we would have rather seen the Braves try to compete in 2015.

I realize it is hard for derptards to focus on the topic at hand, but please try to follow along.

I can't really keep up with the internal dialogue you apparently maintain with yourself.

All I can say is that I wasn't talking about that and I didn't ask you or anyone else a question.

I just pointed out that in all likelihood the Braves would not have won any meaningful games and would have fewer prospects in the system to show for it. You said something about how the farm system would not be diminished. Someone else then I pointed out exactly how many fewer prospects there would be.

Now you are claiming that we were talking about something different.

That's cool. You can talk about anything you want. It's your world.

But I wasn't talking about any of that.

But if you want:

Would I rather the Braves have won 85 games in 2015, let their free agents walk, and kept Simmons and Kimbrell on a team that would have had little chance of breaking 70 wins and gone from there? I don't think I would have.

Would I have rather they committed to being terrible for five years like the Astros, Cubs, Royals, etc? I might have. I'm not sure. I recognize that as a valid strategy though you would see a lot less tangible evidence of success now and I suspect that almost no one would be singing the FO's praises for what they'd done.