Hmmm...not sure one person in here has ever said we didn't do anything wrong. But, you can keep thinking that the radicals are not to blame at all.
ISIS
- Thread starter Hawk
- Start date
Hmmm...not sure one person in here has ever said we didn't do anything wrong. But, you can keep thinking that the radicals are not to blame at all.
sturg33
I
You need to understand that I'm no supporter of ISIS. I think they are bad people and we should pay attention to them.
But you also need to understand that we need to think more thoughtfully about why these issues exist. It's not something that just happens. I'm suggesting that our foreign policy over the last several decades is playing a major role in some of the challenges we face today. Instead of doubling down on that foreign policy, perhaps we can discuss approaching it differently?
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
You who have been laying into sturg33 are creating a false dichotomy. The whole world sees ISIL for the collection of zealots and reprobates that they are, but they didn't just wake up one morning and decide, "Hey, the West really s*cks!" The West has been effing around in the Middle East for a long, long time and, in fairness, the pushback from the Middle East, most notably under the Ottoman Empire, has been a response in kind. But for the most part, that push-and-pull was largely garden variety geopolitics.
What has tilted things is that over the last century--led by uber-racist Winston Churchill and the American CIA--is that little corner of the world has been the target of big-time imperialism from the West and with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, there was no counterbalance to the West's activities. I'm not going to re-hash W's foray into Iraq. That's been yakked to death. But I think it's safe to say for that invasion to be truly successful in a nation-building sense and the establishment of free-standing democracies, we would have had to have had much higher troop levels for a much longer time. We would have had to, in effect, occupy Iraq for 20 to 30 years. And even then, the residual effect within the area would have likely been negative. The instability that has resulted from the revolutionary wave throughout the region has created a system where "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." And ISIL is the one-eyed man.
I give kudos to Rand Paul for pointing that out to Hannity a couple of months back. There were a bunch of secular governments that truly were odious, but instead of working to make those governments less odious, the United States embraced the wave of change and the resulting instability. Now in Egypt, we are seeing a re-establishment of a government that looks to be Mubarak-lite. But that is welcome when compared to the Muslim Brotherhood. In short, I don't think we've known what we are about in this region except for defending Israel and drilling for somebody else's oil. Not a recipe for love.
What has tilted things is that over the last century--led by uber-racist Winston Churchill and the American CIA--is that little corner of the world has been the target of big-time imperialism from the West and with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, there was no counterbalance to the West's activities. I'm not going to re-hash W's foray into Iraq. That's been yakked to death. But I think it's safe to say for that invasion to be truly successful in a nation-building sense and the establishment of free-standing democracies, we would have had to have had much higher troop levels for a much longer time. We would have had to, in effect, occupy Iraq for 20 to 30 years. And even then, the residual effect within the area would have likely been negative. The instability that has resulted from the revolutionary wave throughout the region has created a system where "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." And ISIL is the one-eyed man.
I give kudos to Rand Paul for pointing that out to Hannity a couple of months back. There were a bunch of secular governments that truly were odious, but instead of working to make those governments less odious, the United States embraced the wave of change and the resulting instability. Now in Egypt, we are seeing a re-establishment of a government that looks to be Mubarak-lite. But that is welcome when compared to the Muslim Brotherhood. In short, I don't think we've known what we are about in this region except for defending Israel and drilling for somebody else's oil. Not a recipe for love.
BedellBrave
It's OVER 5,000!
Since we are discussing ISIS: link.
"A young Yazidi woman has begged the West to bomb the brothel where she is being detained and repeatedly raped by terror group Islamic State.
The unidentified woman alleged she was raped dozens of times in a phone call with activists fromCompassion4Kurdistan, which aims to raise awareness of IS' persecution of the Yazidi community in Iraq.
"If you know where we are please bomb us... There is no life after this. I'm going to kill myself anyway - others have killed themselves this morning," she was quoted as saying.
"I've been raped 30 times and it's not even lunchtime. I can't go to the toilet. Please bomb us."
The woman's phone call came just a few days after the UN said that IS' persecution of the Yazidi community is "an attempt to commit genocide."
The militants, whose insurgence in Iraq and Syria has claimed thousands of lives since June 2014, admitted in October that they are kidnapping hundreds of Yazidi women and forcing them into sex slavery.
Slave markets across Iraq have been used by the terror group as a way to recruit new fighters...."
"A young Yazidi woman has begged the West to bomb the brothel where she is being detained and repeatedly raped by terror group Islamic State.
The unidentified woman alleged she was raped dozens of times in a phone call with activists fromCompassion4Kurdistan, which aims to raise awareness of IS' persecution of the Yazidi community in Iraq.
"If you know where we are please bomb us... There is no life after this. I'm going to kill myself anyway - others have killed themselves this morning," she was quoted as saying.
"I've been raped 30 times and it's not even lunchtime. I can't go to the toilet. Please bomb us."
The woman's phone call came just a few days after the UN said that IS' persecution of the Yazidi community is "an attempt to commit genocide."
The militants, whose insurgence in Iraq and Syria has claimed thousands of lives since June 2014, admitted in October that they are kidnapping hundreds of Yazidi women and forcing them into sex slavery.
Slave markets across Iraq have been used by the terror group as a way to recruit new fighters...."
BedellBrave
It's OVER 5,000!
Which is a good thing.
And while I think it's good that we do look at the bigger picture, that picture is bigger and older than you even cover here. And more complex...
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Absolutely. Goes back to the Crusades or perhaps even before. Tried to lump that into geopolitics between East and West writ large, but you're right. It's a lot more complex than the way I have portrayed it.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
No good ever came out of this. None. Zero. Zip.
How did we get from this:
Rummy and Saddam, circa early 1980s
To this:
sturg33
I
No good ever came out of this. None. Zero. Zip.
How did we get from this:
Rummy and Saddam, circa early 1980s
To this:
Amazing, right?
And he's not the only one
The problem (relative to the issue at hand) is that jingoism is dead in America. The current sociopolitical landscape will likely never again support the militaristic approach required to stabilize Iraq. Yes, we can rear-view gaze and criticize the Bush doctrine, or pick apart the Obama withdrawal scheme, but that doesn't appropriately consider the sleeping giant, the conglomeration of hate, that is the ISIL of record.
Understanding the root of the hate is essential to diagnosing polices for the region, absolutely. But it goes bewilderingly deeper than a simple dislike for the Western world. It is a sectarian clash with religious componentry both modern and ancient in nature. It has direct ties to international political orders and financial markets. It's not something that we have the ability to turn off, or just walk away from.
I get it. Our fingerprints are all over the death and destruction. But there is absolutely no clear path forward that doesn't involve more of the same.
Understanding the root of the hate is essential to diagnosing polices for the region, absolutely. But it goes bewilderingly deeper than a simple dislike for the Western world. It is a sectarian clash with religious componentry both modern and ancient in nature. It has direct ties to international political orders and financial markets. It's not something that we have the ability to turn off, or just walk away from.
I get it. Our fingerprints are all over the death and destruction. But there is absolutely no clear path forward that doesn't involve more of the same.
BedellBrave
It's OVER 5,000!
Not perhaps - certainly. It goes back to the Arabian peninsula and Muhammad's army, and then the sweep of Muslim forces across North Africa and East subjugating ancient Jewish and Christian communities en route.
BedellBrave
It's OVER 5,000!
Well, well put.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
And it probably goes back further than that when the Jews conquered other peoples in a rather inelegant manner. I'm not anti-Semitic, but to me there's a geopolitical nature of this that puts religion in the service of secular purposes that runs deeply on both sides. You're right that Muhammad was more sword than crescent, but I believe the issues in the area go back well before then.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
If there weren't oil there, I doubt we would care that much at all.
Part of the problem is, for the many that are uneducated on the right and left in this country on foreign affairs, 9/11 was unprovoked and started this.
Those of us who know about US foreign policy meddling in Middle eastern affairs like Iran Contra, etc. Know that 9/11 was many decades in the making of blowback. But for the average joe it's "they started it first".
Thus we'll never make progress on this front since a good majority of the population has no idea of covert ops by the cia in the middle east all those years prior to 9/11.
This goes with sturg and hawk's points. Both acknowledge we have had our hands in the cookie jar for a long time. But both have differing opinions on how to move forward.
Those of us who know about US foreign policy meddling in Middle eastern affairs like Iran Contra, etc. Know that 9/11 was many decades in the making of blowback. But for the average joe it's "they started it first".
Thus we'll never make progress on this front since a good majority of the population has no idea of covert ops by the cia in the middle east all those years prior to 9/11.
This goes with sturg and hawk's points. Both acknowledge we have had our hands in the cookie jar for a long time. But both have differing opinions on how to move forward.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
What does "deserve" have to do with it? Terrorism is heinous regardless of the target. I think the point some are making is that terrorism--whether state-sponsored or otherwise--is at the root of much of the issue in the Middle East.
sturg33
I
What a dumb question. The lives lost certainly didn't deserve it. But it was blowback. Our own CIA said it was blowback. Osama said it was blowback. You can't march over enemy territory for decades and decades and not expect some consequences. 9/11 was a consequence - it was not random.
Where did my post imply that at all?
All I said was, to the majority of Americans, whom are uninformed on foreign affairs, 9/11 was a spontaneous unprovoked attack and just them hating our freedoms. To them it was the start of USA vs. Middle East Muslims. When in reality, our meddling in middle east affairs for decades added up and helped build up to the point of terrorists going to great ends to cause harm to our country.
Nowhere did I say we deserved 9/11, especially the victims.