Israel

Metaphysicist said:
How does "history" make this true in the present day? No one would argue that Jews haven't been persecuted throughout history; of course they have. No one is arguing that there aren't anti-Semites today. But this isn't 1760. This isn't 1932. This is like 2009 or something. Claiming that the majority of people are anti-Semites is pretty out there. I'd be very interested in your explanation on this.
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It's always not like it was in the past...until it happens again. Israel will do everything in their power to ensure it never does. Someone needs to look out for the well being of the lone Jewish state.

And again, my belief is based on my own personal experience and what history teaches us. Its very easy for a "hate the Jews" movement to surface and gain popularity.
 
Metaphysicist said:
A large portion of Jews are self-identified liberals, much larger than any particular Christian denomination. I don't see this at all.
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Pick and choose liberals which most liberals are.

sorry, I meant that they are anti gay marriage and only allow abortion in certain circumstances. Being liberal and having this is contradicting.
 
thethe said:
My belief is based upon historical president and my own life experience. I'm not even a practicing Jew and I still got unbelievably large amounts of irrational hatred from people growing up. Now, I'm in a field where a larger percentage of the workforce is Jewish so its not there anymore thankfully.
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Maybe where you live. There's some anti-Semitism up here in Minnesota, but it's hardly prevalent.

kr, my Jewish friends are the ones who tell me Jewish jokes.
 
Metaphysicist said:
1. Israel is a western-created state 2. full of western emigrants, 3. funded and politically supported by western powers, and (rightly or wrongly) perceived as 4. culturally western. 5. There are many, many families that have members in both Israel and in the West. I think it should be fairly obvious why people in the west 6. take more interest in this conflict than in others: we are extremely connected to them.

7. I think people in this thread who repeat the refrain that "it's because people always hate the Jews" are being lazy. Yes, some people do hate Jews; some people hate Israel for that reason. 8. That is not reason (most) people protest against Israel. 9. It is certainly not the reason that a number of actual Jewish folks are criticizing Israel's actions. 10. Do you really think Zito takes his position because he is an Anti-Semite... come on...
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1. Yes and no. Yes, officially as a "state," but no in that there have been Jews in Palestine all along.

2. Yes, full of Jews fleeing from the oppression that they experienced in Europe. And full of those hoping for a new life. But, and it needs to be underscored, there were Jews already in Palestine and in significant numbers and if you visit (not sure if you have) Israel, you can tell the difference between the two groups - culturally, look, etc.

3. Sure, as are other countries in the world. So? Are you implying that Westerners are mad at Israel because it receives our financial aid? We'll if so, have those who have ranted against Israel done the same with non-Jewish groups who also are on the dole?

4. Yes, but would we consider French Arab rioters Western too? Would we consider Muslim protestors in London and NYC and in other Western cities, "Western"? Are you implying that rioters and protestors hate Israel because it is Western? Are you implying that Western liberals or libertarians that join in the protest against Israel's actions against Hamas are anti-Western? Not sure what your point is here.

5. Are you saying that many are apoplectic toward Israel because they've got family members living in Israel and that explains the riots in France and protests in other Western nations? Again, I'm not sure I'm following you.

6. We are extremely connected with the Palestinians in Gaza? I don't know too many people who are. Extremely connected to Jews in Israel and so that's why there's this virulent anger directed toward Israel striking back at Hamas?

7. I'm not repeating that refrain, so I'm not sure why you include it here in your response to me. But there is an odd, at least in my mind, hatred for Israel that isn't expressed against other nations or groups as readily, quickly, or predictably, as it is when Israel takes on Hamas in Gaza. At least that's my perception. I could be wrong.

8. Most of whom? Most protestors? Most rioters in France? Most protestors in London and NYC? Most of the vilest commentators online? Cause those are the one's my post is addressing.

9. I suspect many Jews (particularly in the West) are embarrassed and against Zionism (I get that) and that they can think that you can separate anti-Zionism from anti-Semitism. I think that many times that ends up not being possible. The one, at least with the likes of Hamas, is just a leading edge of the other. Unfortunately, too many Jew & Gentile, don't get that, imho.

10. My post didn't mention Zito - I was actually addressing a broader issue. I can't say whether Zito is anti-Semitic. His shrug of the should regarding whether Hamas or Fatah has the upper hand in Palestine is disconcerting.
 
thethe said:
It's always not like it was in the past...until it happens again. Israel will do everything in their power to ensure it never does. Someone needs to look out for the well being of the lone Jewish state.

And again, my belief is based on my own personal experience and what history teaches us. Its very easy for a "hate the Jews" movement to surface and gain popularity.
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And my question is, why? What is it about Jews that engenders this virulent hatred?
 
50PoundHead said:
I think one can be sympathetic to the plight of the Jews and still be disappointed in the state of Israel. I always laugh when the charges of political correctness are bandied about and this situation is one where as soon as anyone says anything even remotely negative about something Israel as done, some people start screaming "Anti-Semitism!"

Anti-Semitism does exist and it is virulent. There is no question about that. I don't know if thethe's characterization that a majority of people are anti-Semitic or not.
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Why has there been this sort of virulent anti-Semitism repeatedly in history 50? And why is it often (at least it seems that way to me) limited to Jews?
 
thethe said:
So happy that the Muslim world is starting to see groups like Hamas for what they are. Its a great step towards stabilizing the region.
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Secularists and military regimes do. But for the past few years we like seeing those sort of regimes thrown down. And we get in their place the Hamas and Muslim Brotherhoods of the world. Thankfully many Egyptians believed that the Brotherhood overplayed their hand (Wow! Imagine that!) and backed the military take over.

I've got friends in Turkey and it has been the same thing since Attaturk.
 
BedellBrave said:
Son of Hamas: Link
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Thanks for posting this. The amount of hate and vitrol of this conflict just is hard to wrap your head around someone thats never been there and seen this first hand.

Hmm... They don't value human life the same way. Not sure why my post on this was disputed by Meta, but there you go.
 
gilesfan said:
I always enjoy Zito trolling, but defending Hamas? That's a bit far fetched.
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He realized how stupid it was and took down a lot of his posts. Its sad that someone could actually go to lengths to defend Hamas' actions.
 
thethe said:
He realized how stupid it was and took down a lot of his posts. Its sad that someone could actually go to lengths to defend Hamas' actions.
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It's actually sadder that the person would continue defending Hamas after most everyone told him he was wrong.
 
Bedell, I have thought before that anti-Semitism might come from the animosity created by an appearance of not fully blending into another society, that even though they are seen to be successful in a non-Jewish environment, they still find a way to remain "unmelted" as it were. But I don't know.
 
Runnin said:
Bedell, I have thought before that anti-Semitism might come from the animosity created by an appearance of not fully blending into another society, that even though they are seen to be successful in a non-Jewish environment, they still find a way to remain "unmelted" as it were. But I don't know.
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Runnin, I think one of the things that separates the Jews from other cultures is that they view themselves both as a nation and a religion (and a set of traditions) and, like you say, haven't "melted" the way other cultures have as a result. A lot of people view this reluctance to "melt" as a post establishment of Christianity phenomena, but if you've read the Old Testament, there is plenty of evidence that they didn't assimilate in that era either. So I think that's where some of this starts and it's only exacerbated since the establishment of the Christian faith, which, in some quarters, has saddled the Jews with the "Christ-killer" label.

I have to hand it to the Jews. They have been kicked around, taken into exile, prohibited from all manners of commerce throughout the ages and they don't bend in the face of this onslaught. I think the heart of a lot of anti-Semitism springs from the simple fact that those who despise them simply can't make them go away and their resilience makes the torturers all the more determined to punish them.

That said, I have my share of issues with the state of Israel (but that doesn't make me a fan of Hamas or Hezbollah). Michael Walzer wrote this piece for today's online edition of The New Republic and I think it's a pretty good synopsis of what's happening over there now.

Link: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/...ow-should-israel-fight-asymmetrical-war-hamas
 
50PoundHead said:
I have to hand it to the Jews. They have been kicked around, taken into exile, prohibited from all manners of commerce throughout the ages and they don't bend in the face of this onslaught. I think the heart of a lot of anti-Semitism springs from the simple fact that those who despise them simply can't make them go away and their resilience makes the torturers all the more determined to punish them.
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That's what I was getting at.

The Christ-killer tag, of course, doesn't make any sense at all. If they hadn't of killed him there would be nothing to build the myth on.
 
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