Israel

AerchAngel said:
Who said I was conservative.....assume much I guess. You want to pen my dislike of MIDDLE EASTERN Muslims because I am a Conservative.

I get a chuckle out of that.
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i chuckle that you think i was talking about you

that comment is about conservatives

i thought i made myself very clear there who i was talking about
 
Israel doesn't want peace. They want control of the Palestinians. They do not want Palestine to become independent or a nation. The idea Israel wants peace is hilarious considering they keep taking more land away. They simply just want to pacify the Palestinians enough to where they no longer want to fight back and call that peace. Hamas is the most extreme of the Palestinian movement and Israel loves it because they can play the victim card when they are 100x more powerful than Hamas.
 
KeithLockhart said:
Israel doesn't want peace. They want control of the Palestinians. They do not want Palestine to become independent or a nation. The idea Israel wants peace is hilarious considering they keep taking more land away. They simply just want to pacify the Palestinians enough to where they no longer want to fight back and call that peace. Hamas is the most extreme of the Palestinian movement and Israel loves it because they can play the victim card when they are 100x more powerful than Hamas.
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You are correct.

but

Hamas wants Israel destroyed and not be recognized by the world. If it were reverse and Hamas had that fire power, there will be no Israeli living, you can count on that.

Darwinism at its finest. Neither side will give in so in turn innocents are going to die and there is nothing we can do about it.
 
Hamas is a distraction that Israel loves. They are the equivalent to the Tea Party here, albeit they're 10x more extreme because they're actually willing to act on their "revolt" whereas the tea party here is all talk and no walk.

Israel is continuing to drive the media narrative that Hamas is the final voice of the Palestinians, therefore the Palestinians endorse Hamas' actions. They're using Hamas to drown out the PLO and Abbas, the ones who really want peace, because that would mean Israel would be seen as the bully picking on the small guys, not Hamas.

And again, the stronger the PLO is, would be bad for Israel because they would have no choice BUT to go for peace talks. They do not want Palestinians to have their own independent nation or state. This is why they've been going at it with Hamas for decades now. It also is a reflection of how much and how little Israel has invested in Palestinian area to spur growth. We have a similar problem here at home. We don't invest in the uneducated, and then we are surprised when the uneducated go into things like crime and welfare, etc. Israel doesn't invest in Palestinians. Thus the uneducated people like Hamas are going to fight because nobody else will fight and because Palestine doesn't have an actual army.
 
KeithLockhart said:
Hamas is a distraction that Israel loves. They are the equivalent to the Tea Party here, albeit they're 10x more extreme because they're actually willing to act on their "revolt" whereas the tea party here is all talk and no walk.

Israel is continuing to drive the media narrative that Hamas is the final voice of the Palestinians, therefore the Palestinians endorse Hamas' actions. They're using Hamas to drown out the PLO and Abbas, the ones who really want peace, because that would mean Israel would be seen as the bully picking on the small guys, not Hamas.

And again, the stronger the PLO is, would be bad for Israel because they would have no choice BUT to go for peace talks. They do not want Palestinians to have their own independent nation or state. This is why they've been going at it with Hamas for decades now. It also is a reflection of how much and how little Israel has invested in Palestinian area to spur growth. We have a similar problem here at home. We don't invest in the uneducated, and then we are surprised when the uneducated go into things like crime and welfare, etc. Israel doesn't invest in Palestinians. Thus the uneducated people like Hamas are going to fight because nobody else will fight and because Palestine doesn't have an actual army.
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Oh I agree with you, but there is one small thing you did not touch on. Why do they not want to recognize Israel and want their total destruction? If they take that out of their rhetoric wouldn't the world be more forgiving to them and much harsher with Israel? I feel like if you hate someone so much, no one is going to help you.

Like Yoda said, so much hate, so much anger, will get you no where but your own destruction.
 
AerchAngel said:
Why do they not want to recognize Israel and want their total destruction? If they take that out of their rhetoric wouldn't the world be more forgiving to them and much harsher with Israel?
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cause fiction is fun?

yet again, the narrative doesn't fit reality

Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

The Guardian, Wednesday 11 January 2006

Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election in a fortnight, a move that brings the group closer to the mainstream Palestinian position of building a state within the boundaries of the occupied territories.
The Islamist faction, responsible for a long campaign of suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis, still calls for the maintenance of the armed struggle against occupation. But it steps back from Hamas's 1988 charter demanding Israel's eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place.

The manifesto makes no mention of the destruction of the Jewish state and instead takes a more ambiguous position by saying that Hamas had decided to compete in the elections because it would contribute to "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem".

The shift in emphasis comes as Hamas finds itself under pressure from the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, and from foreign governments to accept Israel's right to exist and to end its violence if it wants to be accepted as a political partner in a future administration.

The group is expected to emerge as the second largest party after Mr Abbas's Fatah in the next Palestinian parliament. Opinion polls give it more than a third of the popular vote, built on a campaign against Fatah's endemic corruption and mismanagement and failure to contain growing criminality, and by claiming credit for driving the Israeli army and settlers out of Gaza.

But the manifesto continues to emphasise the armed struggle. "Our nation is at a stage of national liberation, and it has the right to act to regain its rights and end the occupation by using all means, including armed resistance," it says.

Gazi Hamad, a Hamas candidate in the Gaza Strip, yesterday said the manifesto reflected the group's position of accepting an interim state based on 1967 borders but leaving a final decision on whether to recognise Israel to future generations.

"Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist," he said. "We cannot give up the right of the armed struggle because our territory is occupied in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. That is the territory we are fighting to liberate."

But Mr Hamad said the armed resistance was no longer Hamas's primary strategy. "The policy is to maintain the armed struggle but it is not our first priority. We know that first of all we have to put more effort into resolving the internal problems, dealing with corruption, blackmail, chaos. This is our priority because if we change the situation for the Palestinians it will make our cause stronger.

"Hamas is looking to establish a new political strategy in which all Palestinian groups will participate, not just dominated by Fatah. We will discuss the negotiation strategy, how can we run the conflict with Israel but by different means."

Ghassan Khatib, a Palestinian cabinet minister and member of the secular Palestinian People's party, said he believed Hamas was being forced to face reality as it prepared to sit in parliament, and that it would have to embrace a negotiated settlement with Israel: "Having Hamas inside the system is a positive development whereby they have to abide by the rules of the majority and respect the arguments of the administration they are part of, which includes a state built on 1967 borders. It will take time but Hamas will no longer have their own militia. It will be solely a political force."

But Israel's security establishment predicts that if Hamas does as well as expected in the election it will damage the Palestinian Authority and further undermine the prospects for an agreement.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/12/israel
 
KeithLockhart said:
Hamas is a distraction that Israel loves. They are the equivalent to the Tea Party here, albeit they're 10x more extreme because they're actually willing to act on their "revolt" whereas the tea party here is all talk and no walk.

Israel is continuing to drive the media narrative that Hamas is the final voice of the Palestinians, therefore the Palestinians endorse Hamas' actions. They're using Hamas to drown out the PLO and Abbas, the ones who really want peace, because that would mean Israel would be seen as the bully picking on the small guys, not Hamas.

And again, the stronger the PLO is, would be bad for Israel because they would have no choice BUT to go for peace talks. They do not want Palestinians to have their own independent nation or state. This is why they've been going at it with Hamas for decades now. It also is a reflection of how much and how little Israel has invested in Palestinian area to spur growth. We have a similar problem here at home. We don't invest in the uneducated, and then we are surprised when the uneducated go into things like crime and welfare, etc. Israel doesn't invest in Palestinians. Thus the uneducated people like Hamas are going to fight because nobody else will fight and because Palestine doesn't have an actual army.
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I've been trying to stay out of this one, but you make a lot of the points I would have made if I had wanted to post something.

The Israeli government worked feverishly to undermine the Palestinian Authority and absolutely refused to give Yasser Arafat even a sniff of legitimacy in the peace process and as a result, drove the Palestinian people toward Hamas. Netanyahu and the more conservative/expansionist elements of the Israeli government have been playing realpolitik in a way that would make Bismarck blush.

By not bolstering the more moderate elements in Palestine, Israel has left Hamas as the only Palestinians on the playing field and then turns to the world and says, "Look at these horrid people!" On top of that, the continued expansion of the settlements into Gaza is reprehensible on so many levels, but again, it plays well to the portion of the Israeli populace that would just as soon summarily execute every single Palestinian and thus the setllement initiative is pursued. If there were a legitimate, non-Hamas party representing the Palestinian people, Israel would have to scale back the settlements.

I'm not defending Hamas, but for some in here to contend that Israel hasn't contributed to the overall problem is a bit myopic. I'm not talking about the conduct of the war itself as both sides have knowingly violated accepted rules of war, but that is an entirely different matter.
 
Btw

Less than an hour till the new ceasefire starts

And both sides are still dropping bombs or firing missles kg
 
BJ#1FAN said:
Israel doesn't want peace. They want control of the Palestinians. They do not want Palestine to become independent or a nation. The idea Israel wants peace is hilarious considering they keep taking more land away. They simply just want to pacify the Palestinians enough to where they no longer want to fight back and call that peace. Hamas is the most extreme of the Palestinian movement and Israel loves it because they can play the victim card when they are 100x more powerful than Hamas.
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Got another live one.

Dang this thread went all down hill.

SMH.
 
goldfly said:
cause fiction is fun?

yet again, the narrative doesn't fit reality

Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

The Guardian, Wednesday 11 January 2006

Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election in a fortnight, a move that brings the group closer to the mainstream Palestinian position of building a state within the boundaries of the occupied territories.
The Islamist faction, responsible for a long campaign of suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis, still calls for the maintenance of the armed struggle against occupation. But it steps back from Hamas's 1988 charter demanding Israel's eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place.

The manifesto makes no mention of the destruction of the Jewish state and instead takes a more ambiguous position by saying that Hamas had decided to compete in the elections because it would contribute to "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem".

The shift in emphasis comes as Hamas finds itself under pressure from the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, and from foreign governments to accept Israel's right to exist and to end its violence if it wants to be accepted as a political partner in a future administration.

The group is expected to emerge as the second largest party after Mr Abbas's Fatah in the next Palestinian parliament. Opinion polls give it more than a third of the popular vote, built on a campaign against Fatah's endemic corruption and mismanagement and failure to contain growing criminality, and by claiming credit for driving the Israeli army and settlers out of Gaza.

But the manifesto continues to emphasise the armed struggle. "Our nation is at a stage of national liberation, and it has the right to act to regain its rights and end the occupation by using all means, including armed resistance," it says.

Gazi Hamad, a Hamas candidate in the Gaza Strip, yesterday said the manifesto reflected the group's position of accepting an interim state based on 1967 borders but leaving a final decision on whether to recognise Israel to future generations.

"Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist," he said. "We cannot give up the right of the armed struggle because our territory is occupied in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. That is the territory we are fighting to liberate."

But Mr Hamad said the armed resistance was no longer Hamas's primary strategy. "The policy is to maintain the armed struggle but it is not our first priority. We know that first of all we have to put more effort into resolving the internal problems, dealing with corruption, blackmail, chaos. This is our priority because if we change the situation for the Palestinians it will make our cause stronger.

"Hamas is looking to establish a new political strategy in which all Palestinian groups will participate, not just dominated by Fatah. We will discuss the negotiation strategy, how can we run the conflict with Israel but by different means."

Ghassan Khatib, a Palestinian cabinet minister and member of the secular Palestinian People's party, said he believed Hamas was being forced to face reality as it prepared to sit in parliament, and that it would have to embrace a negotiated settlement with Israel: "Having Hamas inside the system is a positive development whereby they have to abide by the rules of the majority and respect the arguments of the administration they are part of, which includes a state built on 1967 borders. It will take time but Hamas will no longer have their own militia. It will be solely a political force."

But Israel's security establishment predicts that if Hamas does as well as expected in the election it will damage the Palestinian Authority and further undermine the prospects for an agreement.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/12/israel
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It ain't that simple... And if you think it is, you haven't been paying attention.
 
BJ#1FAN said:
1. Hamas is a distraction that Israel loves. 2. They are the equivalent to the Tea Party here, albeit they're 10x more extreme because they're actually willing to act on their "revolt" whereas the tea party here is all talk and no walk.

3. Israel is continuing to drive the media narrative that Hamas is the final voice of the Palestinians, 4. therefore the Palestinians endorse Hamas' actions. 5. They're using Hamas to drown out the PLO and Abbas, the ones who really want peace, because that would mean Israel would be seen as the bully picking on the small guys, not Hamas.

And again, the stronger the PLO is, would be bad for Israel because they would have no choice BUT to go for peace talks. They do not want Palestinians to have their own independent nation or state. 6. This is why they've been going at it with Hamas for decades now. 7. It also is a reflection of how much and how little Israel has invested in Palestinian area to spur growth. We have a similar problem here at home. 8. We don't invest in the uneducated, and then we are surprised when the uneducated go into things like crime and welfare, etc. Israel doesn't invest in Palestinians. 9. Thus the uneducated people like Hamas are going to fight because nobody else will fight and because Palestine doesn't have an actual army.
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Here we go again. So much to disagree with.

1. Yeah, really love'm some Hamas. Got to love the rhetoric.

2. ****ty analogy. Just really, mind-boggling awful.

3. Hey, I missed the memo. Hamas is the final voice for Palestinians? Fatah has no voice? If Israel's doing this they are doing a piss-poor job.

4. Hyperbole. No, all Palestinians don't endorse Hamas and their actions. Not all even in Gaza do. Do most hate Israel? I wouldn't argue that they don't. But can we make some distinctions here? Huh?

5. No, they really aren't. They don't want a Fatah-Hamas joint government, but they aren't trying to destroy Fatah.

6. Yeah, it has nothing, no nothing to do with the positions, actions and words of Hamas themselves. Has to always be someone else's fault. SMH.

7. Might want to watch that Hillary Clinton and John Stewart interview I provided earlier. Unless you are saying she was flat-out lying, then your proposition isn't that strong. If she isn't lying, tell me, why exactly should Israel invest more money into Gaza? And also, why is Israel to invest anyway?

8. Sure we do. Not to your liking though.

9. That's it. Israel just needs a "No Child Left Behind" program and that will do away with Brotherhood/Jihadist movements. Is there a role for education? Yeah, let the Gazans stop teaching their little ones that its cool to kill Jews. Is there a role for Israeli funds to be given to those who haven't revoked their death-cult charter? Not sure if that's a good idea.
 
Now if you want to protest against Israeli settlements in the West Bank, then I'm with you. But this defense of Hamas is a bit much.
 
BedellBrave said:
Now if you want to protest against Israeli settlements in the West Bank, then I'm with you. But this defense of Hamas is a bit much.
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I do. It's the single biggest roadblock to peace and an issue that the current Israeli government has made an article of faith.

Short term, this conflict may serve to isolate Hamas—from the Palestinian street, from some traditional allies, etc. But it is short-sighted IMO to focus only on that instead of how the civilian death toll will serve to radicalize future generations of Palestinians. It has been thus and will likely continue to be.

Hamas, in some iteration, or some group with the values of Hamas, is going to be in the tent in any future political settlement. History has a way of turning independence movements who rely on violence against non-military targets—see the Algerian War of Independence, or the post-WWII Zionist cadres—into heroes. It certainly doesn't look that way when it's happening in real time. This is not a defense of the tactics of Hamas, but an attempt to add some perspective to this discussion.
 
BedellBrave said:
It ain't that simple... And if you think it is, you haven't been paying attention.
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which part "isn't that simple"?

i don't think any of it is simple

well, outside of not blowing up schools with children etc in them
 
Julio3000 said:
1. I do. It's the single biggest roadblock to peace and an issue that the current Israeli government has made an article of faith.

2. Short term, this conflict may serve to isolate Hamas—from the Palestinian street, from some traditional allies, etc. But it is short-sighted IMO to focus only on that instead of how the civilian death toll will serve to radicalize future generations of Palestinians. It has been thus and will likely continue to be.

3. Hamas, in some iteration, or some group with the values of Hamas, is going to be in the tent in any future political settlement. History has a way of turning independence movements who rely on violence against non-military targets—see the Algerian War of Independence, or the post-WWII Zionist cadres—into heroes. It certainly doesn't look that way when it's happening in real time. This is not a defense of the tactics of Hamas, but an attempt to add some perspective to this discussion.
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1. Good. We agree.

2. I think that view is entirely too colonial and Western. It assumes a "play nice, negotiate and all will be well" option is available with Hamas. It judges a western nation - Israel - and assumes a Western response from Hamas. It assumes a non-radicalized pool of Palestinians (and others) and doesn't factor in the fact that now several other nations in the region are considering Israel as doing their own necessary bidding against the Brotherhood.

3. How do you have a party in your tent that is a death-cult? When Hamas is no longer a Brotherhood chapter or Palestinian version, when it openly and repeatedly acknowledges that Israel has a right to exist, when it stops teaching its children to hate and that their sublime belief is death in the cause of Allah, when it stops denying the Holocaust, when it moves it's military bases out of the populated areas of the Gaza strip and into less populated areas, then if I were Israel I'd be willing to come into that tent.
 
goldfly said:
which part "isn't that simple"?

i don't think any of it is simple

well, outside of not blowing up schools with children etc in them
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The implication that they've now abandoned their charter, because they use ambiguous language.

The idea that an urban war can be fought with an enemy that demands its citizens remain in its urban areas instead of fleeing to nearby less populated areas, sets its weaponry up in those populated areas, starts its tunnel system from there, and there be no civilian casualties.
 
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