Jeb Bush: People Need to Work Longer Hours...

[AerchAngel]

Sturg, I know you hate giving things away for free and I don't believe government should pay the loans off of those I know have terrible credit, a meager job and did not expect to get their decent, I did not say good, paying job snatched from under them and then find it harder to even make half that.

What do you expect them to do? They can't get more schooling, their credit is ruined and it was Big Business doing. They weren't in a union, just one day, you got 30 days, here is your severance package, good luck. That is it.

You look at your house, you been paying for the last 5 years, a nice SUV and two kids and then see it go away in a microsec. Then you go live with family, pumping out 100's of resumes, but you know the line they ask "What salary you expect?" You think, well an Indian usually will ask for a certain amount, but they have to come over here, get some other incentives. So you ask the same amount you assume. They come back and say well you are asking too much.

Defeated. So what are you going to do. An acquaintance of mine is Indian (wives are great friends) but grew up in Kuwait and he told me the country preach infiltrating US companies, not for war or anything, but to bring the money back there. Same as South America, same as for Mexico. They can undercut us, but the money does not stay here. He also said that when he negotiates, he ask what the normal salary is and he goes with that because when he says that he knows that most Americans will not stoop to the bare level. They are smart and why they take our jobs. Some are actually good at it. Most of the people who trained me in programming where Indians. Annoying though as they go the long route to do it, but they are programmed that way.

So do you really want this business model to continue?

 

[AerchAngel]

You do realize that the annoying qualities you're calling me out for are the exact same ones you're using against me, right?

I know, I know Hawk. I'm a (scary propaganda label) because one of my beliefs doesn't coincide with the right wingers handbook. I also know that once someone is labeled a (scary propaganda label), it makes it real easy to discredit everything they say thereafter regardless of how much it may make sense. The whole labeling thing is so ridiculous. I have many, many beliefs and they aren't all covered under one label. Take that amateur hour labeling garbage elsewhere.

I gave my thoughts on the subjects and I expressed my disagreements on some others. I answered as many questions as I could from you guys and when I asked questions you guys ignored them or regurgitated them in the form of "What does it feel like to be skull ****ed by big business?"...which was obviously never asked. I asked you a serious question about why you think the government are assholes because I actually wanted to know why you think that way. I asked sturg why he thought small business was over regulated and he never answered either. I thought both questions could have led to solid discussions but both were skirted.

We elect these people into office to discuss these issues and figure them out for us. It's their full time job to figure this **** out. It's what they get paid for. None of us are qualified to really figure any of this out. We don't have the time to figure out the pros and cons to every single issue and then formulate the correct solution that is fair to everyone. If you want my opinion on a simple fix it would be to make lobbying illegal. Get the money out of politics so the decision makers make decisions on what's best for the people and not a select few. Is that the final solution? No, but it gets the ball rolling in the right direction. Now if you have a reason why you think that's a stupid idea, I'd love to hear it.

Don't let him get to you ESP47, you two are more alike than you know and he knows, just a different way of expressing yourselves and it is evidently different. I am similar to you both but I am radically different than both of you and that is a good thing.

I can draw upon experience, just like you, just like Hawk, though I redundant at times (go ahead and laugh) but the point remains the same, we are all on the same team to make this country great, but both business and government is bending us over and in some ways in cahoot with each other.

 

[ESP47]

Why are small businesses so over regulated? There's probably a million different reasons. The over-arching theme would be the government has to get its hands into everything - and it ultimately slows everything down and often makes things far less productive.

Meanwhile - you're upset about the minimum wage thing. let's look at it from a basic liberty perspective. If a person (let's say me)... If I want to work for $6 and hour to get some extra cash, and a business is willing to pay me that, you're suggestion is that that should be illegal. Think about how ridiculous that is

Ok so you don't know why businesses are over regulated.

I'm not upset about the minimum wage thing at all. I think it's fine where it's at and should only be raised with inflation. I don't know why you're upset with it. Since when are minimum wagers the problem? Since when is this country hurting for minimum wage jobs? We've been turned into a service based country which means we have a ton of minimum wage jobs and not a lot of medium and high paying jobs. I'm just not sure what you're seeing with this topic. Many of the decent paying jobs are gone and have been replaced with low paying service jobs. Now you want to take those low paying service jobs and pay them even less. Other than people being poorer and the CEO's of McDonalds, Target etc getting richer....I'm really not following your logic with this.

Think about how ridiculous your analogy is. Why would you want to work for $6/hr if your state's minimum wage is $8/hr? Just go and get an $8/hr job. Since when are minimum wage jobs hard to find? What's going to hurt us more....the minute percentage of people out there that want to make less than minimum wage or the large percentage of minimum wagers that are going to have their salaries lowered? This is what I mean about us having real problems up in Washington while we pay attention to these pointless topics. I get your liberty argument but the world isn't black and white man. Should I have the liberty the change my oil into the river? Should restaurants have the liberty to cook your food in filth with poisonous ingredients? Most laws are in place to protect you from stupid irresponsible people. They aren't there to take away your liberty.

 

[sturg33]

Ok so you don't know why businesses are over regulated.

I could go through a litany of reasons - and maybe I will when I have more than 10 minutes

I'm not upset about the minimum wage thing at all.

Yeah you are

I think it's fine where it's at and should only be raised with inflation. I don't know why you're upset with it.

I'm not upset... just think it should be abolished... it's anti-liberty and bad for jobs

Since when are minimum wagers the problem?

They're not a problem

Since when is this country hurting for minimum wage jobs?

Apparently quite a bit as all I hear is cheap labor is being shipped overseas

We've been turned into a service based country which means we have a ton of minimum wage jobs and not a lot of medium and high paying jobs. I'm just not sure what you're seeing with this topic.

I'm not seeing anything. I gave my opinion and then you went ballistic about how I'm brainwashed and said that companies make too much money but wouldn't tell me how much they should make

Many of the decent paying jobs are gone and have been replaced with low paying service jobs.

Technology, labor costs, and over-regulation are the main reasons here

Now you want to take those low paying service jobs and pay them even less.

No I don't. I want to pay them what they and the employer mutually agree upon

Other than people being poorer and the CEO's of McDonalds, Target etc getting richer....I'm really not following your logic with this.

Personal liberty for starters. But I'm not concerned about other people getting richer

Think about how ridiculous your analogy is.

Not sure you know what an analogy is

Why would you want to work for $6/hr if your state's minimum wage is $8/hr?

Pretty sure I've been clear about this. I would authorize more budget to seasonal call center employees if I could pay them less. I can't, so I don't. When I worked at Target while in high school and college, we would have loved to hire a few more bodies for the holidays... but the cost was too prohibitive to do so

Just go and get an $8/hr job.

What if it's not available?

Since when are minimum wage jobs hard to find?

Apparently since today. In 2013, only 4% of all hourly workers made minimum wage. That number decreases when you account for salaried employees. But I'm supposed to believe that we will all be working for pennies if we remove the minimum wage. Get real

What's going to hurt us more....the minute percentage of people out there that want to make less than minimum wage or the large percentage of minimum wagers that are going to have their salaries lowered?

The large percentage? See above, 4.3% in 2013. I guess those greedy corporations are too dumb to realize they can slash everyone's pay

This is what I mean about us having real problems up in Washington while we pay attention to these pointless topics. I get your liberty argument but the world isn't black and white man.

I don't think you do. It's not black and white to suggest that two consenting adults should be exchange services for money of their choosing. That's just having the freedom to make your own choices.

Should I have the liberty the change my oil into the river?

No

Should restaurants have the liberty to cook your food in filth with poisonous ingredients?

No

Most laws are in place to protect you from stupid irresponsible people. They aren't there to take away your liberty.

Laws are supposed to be in place to protect individual liberty

Please don't accuse me of avoiding questions

 

[sturg33]

Sturg, I know you hate giving things away for free and I don't believe government should pay the loans off of those I know have terrible credit, a meager job and did not expect to get their decent, I did not say good, paying job snatched from under them and then find it harder to even make half that.

What do you expect them to do? They can't get more schooling, their credit is ruined and it was Big Business doing. They weren't in a union, just one day, you got 30 days, here is your severance package, good luck. That is it.

You look at your house, you been paying for the last 5 years, a nice SUV and two kids and then see it go away in a microsec. Then you go live with family, pumping out 100's of resumes, but you know the line they ask "What salary you expect?" You think, well an Indian usually will ask for a certain amount, but they have to come over here, get some other incentives. So you ask the same amount you assume. They come back and say well you are asking too much.

Defeated. So what are you going to do. An acquaintance of mine is Indian (wives are great friends) but grew up in Kuwait and he told me the country preach infiltrating US companies, not for war or anything, but to bring the money back there. Same as South America, same as for Mexico. They can undercut us, but the money does not stay here. He also said that when he negotiates, he ask what the normal salary is and he goes with that because when he says that he knows that most Americans will not stoop to the bare level. They are smart and why they take our jobs. Some are actually good at it. Most of the people who trained me in programming where Indians. Annoying though as they go the long route to do it, but they are programmed that way.

So do you really want this business model to continue?

My suggestion would be to make yourself too valuable to be replaced

 

[ESP47]

Minimum wage jobs weren't shipped overseas. Manufacturing jobs were.

That's great that you have the budget for more seasonal employees at less than minimum wage. I feel so bad for your company that they aren't allowed to hire workers at slave wages. I have the budget to hire a crew to put a fence in my backyard for $10 too.

Your minimum wage statistic is skewed. If min wage is $8 and someone gets a 15 cent raise after a month, they're no longer literally minimum wage but they're still in the same bracket. My large percentage quote was about those already making minimum wage having their wages dropped even further.....not that a large percentage of the total population was making minimum wage.

Ok so you don't think we should all have free liberty after all then. We should just have the liberties that you agree with. I should be able to change my oil in a river without the government and their environmental regulations interfering with my liberty.

 

[sturg33]

Minimum wage jobs weren't shipped overseas. Manufacturing jobs were.

That's great that you have the budget for more seasonal employees at less than minimum wage. I feel so bad for your company that they aren't allowed to hire workers at slave wages. I have the budget to hire a crew to put a fence in my backyard for $10 too.

Your minimum wage statistic is skewed. If min wage is $8 and someone gets a 15 cent raise after a month, they're no longer literally minimum wage but they're still in the same bracket. My large percentage quote was about those already making minimum wage having their wages dropped even further.....not that a large percentage of the total population was making minimum wage.

Ok so you don't think we should all have free liberty after all then. We should just have the liberties that you agree with. I should be able to change my oil in a river without the government and their environmental regulations interfering with my liberty.

Your last sentence just exposes how hysterical you are about the subject, so I don't anticipate re-hashing much of this with you going forward.

My position on just about everything is very consistent. I believe you can do whatever you want so long as you don't hurt someone else. Your stupid example would violate that, in my opinion.

When you get your wish of $15 hr to take the order of a small french fry, don't complain when those min wage workers are replaced by kiosks

 

[sturg33]

Further, my position on minimum wage is very defendable, where I don't believe yours is.

My position: I believe a company and a worker can work together for any compensation that is mutually agreed upon

Your position: The government should set a minimum, and it should be raised with inflation

My argument against your position is, what should that minimum be? Why shouldn't it be more/less? Who's deciding it and how is it decided? Can I work for less if I agree to?

Your argument against my position seems to be that without this minimum wage, I will automatically be making pennies.

This simpleton argument is so so short-sighted. In your worldview (along with many others on this board), companies will slash pay to basically nothing. The fallacy is that the labor would continue to work under those circumstances, which I believe we Americans have already proven that we won't do it if we are qualified for more. Allowing the market to work without government interference would take care of this but of course that is not how we operate today... And here we are

 

[goldfly]

This simpleton argument is so so short-sighted.....companies will slash pay to basically nothing. The fallacy is that the labor would continue to work under those circumstances

hmm, let's give this a thought. i wonder why the minimum wage was created.

it couldn't have been cause business was giving people good living wages. it cant be that

so, i wonder what it was for

 

[ESP47]

I never said my wish was for $15/hr. Have you even read anything I've wrote or do you just gloss over what I'm saying and assume I'm saying extreme left wing ideologies since I don't agree with you?

Again when did I say people would automatically be making pennies? Another extreme left wing assumption by you. I said they would get people used to lower salaries over time. Seems as if anything I say that isn't full right wing is interpreted as a Michael Moore opinion on steroids.

It's just funny that you think there's a free market. Free market when a small handful of companies own nearly every product and service out there. If you don't think they control the market, then I just don't know what to tell you. Your idea works in a perfect world but the world is far from perfect and the people you are looking to help are the ones who are looking to take advantage of everyone else. If we need laws to try and regulate humans when it comes to murder, theft and rape because we can't trust people to live morally, why wouldn't we need laws to protect us from people being immoral and greedy when it comes to money? It's amusing that you think human behaviors don't apply to the market.

 

[sturg33]

I never said my wish was for $15/hr. Have you even read anything I've wrote or do you just gloss over what I'm saying and assume I'm saying extreme left wing ideologies since I don't agree with you?

Again when did I say people would automatically be making pennies? Another extreme left wing assumption by you. I said they would get people used to lower salaries over time. Seems as if anything I say that isn't full right wing is interpreted as a Michael Moore opinion on steroids.

It's just funny that you think there's a free market. Free market when a small handful of companies own nearly every product and service out there. If you don't think they control the market, then I just don't know what to tell you. Your idea works in a perfect world but the world is far from perfect and the people you are looking to help are the ones who are looking to take advantage of everyone else. If we need laws to try and regulate humans when it comes to murder, theft and rape because we can't trust people to live morally, why wouldn't we need laws to protect us from people being immoral and greedy when it comes to money? It's amusing that you think human behaviors don't apply to the market.

I don't think there is a free market at all. Far from it.

The minimum wage is a part of the reason why

 

[AerchAngel]

My suggestion would be to make yourself too valuable to be replaced

Businesses don't care. IT job is an IT job and can be shipped overseas. It doesn't matter if you are worker of the year, when an Indian company say we can do this for less, the company will do it.

 

[AerchAngel]

If you don't have minimum wage, you will have sweat shops here in the US, more than likely no workers because the cost of goods and services will stay the same, which in some cases will destroy some businesses if no ones want to work.

The ones who would benefit is the illegals.

 

[ESP47]

If you don't have minimum wage, you will have sweat shops here in the US, more than likely no workers because the cost of goods and services will stay the same, which in some cases will destroy some businesses if no ones want to work.

The ones who would benefit is the illegals.

Exactly. It's not like they're going to have sweat shops overnight but things will slowly start moving in that direction.

People saying we have a chance to negotiate for more money if our jobs are allowed to pay us less money is so absurd, I can't even wrap my head around why someone would think that way unless they were part of the 1%. You can negotiate up from minimum wage as it currently stands. Getting rid of it doesn't give you any kind of extra leverage. It just makes it to where you're negotiating your wage under the point it was previously at.

 

[sturg33]

Exactly. It's not like they're going to have sweat shops overnight but things will slowly start moving in that direction.

People saying we have a chance to negotiate for more money if our jobs are allowed to pay us less money is so absurd, I can't even wrap my head around why someone would think that way unless they were part of the 1%. You can negotiate up from minimum wage as it currently stands. Getting rid of it doesn't give you any kind of extra leverage. It just makes it to where you're negotiating your wage under the point it was previously at.

So earlier you said I was exaggerating your claims of what getting rid of minimum wage would do... and here you just said we will have sweat shops. OK then

 

[sturg33]

Businesses don't care. IT job is an IT job and can be shipped overseas. It doesn't matter if you are worker of the year, when an Indian company say we can do this for less, the company will do it.

So you're saying if a company can get the same production for less cost, they shouldn't do it?

 

[AerchAngel]

So you're saying if a company can get the same production for less cost, they shouldn't do it?

I agree there, but lets just say if they go that route, you spend a lot on education, but businesses will only pay you 12 an hour and you are looking at an 80k year loan, but then an Indian company say will do it at 8 an hour, you can't do anything, you are barely making it at 12, well you wont, you forever be in debt. business will get their money anyway they can and will exploit you anyway they can that is the nature of big business. you can say work somewhere else, well you can't just up and leave your home and buy another saddle with that debt, you have mouths to feed. If you abolish something like that, business will salivate the sweat shops they can operate.

"Fine, if you don't except this 12, I can find someone at 10" would be their answer.

Only a select few will be able to command the salaries they get, like me, or more like our company because of uniqueness. We don't deal with exports or bringing things in, everything is regional. But I and our company is a rarity. We deal with both states of Minnesota and Wisconsin and directly with the state governments and schools. A lot of business are not tied to these entities, so I am voicing out for those who can be sweat-shopped if it comes to that.

 

[sturg33]

I agree there, but lets just say if they go that route, you spend a lot on education, but businesses will only pay you 12 an hour and you are looking at an 80k year loan, but then an Indian company say will do it at 8 an hour, you can't do anything, you are barely making it at 12, well you wont, you forever be in debt. business will get their money anyway they can and will exploit you anyway they can that is the nature of big business. you can say work somewhere else, well you can't just up and leave your home and buy another saddle with that debt, you have mouths to feed. If you abolish something like that, business will salivate the sweat shops they can operate.

"Fine, if you don't except this 12, I can find someone at 10" would be their answer.

Only a select few will be able to command the salaries they get, like me, or more like our company because of uniqueness. We don't deal with exports or bringing things in, everything is regional. But I and our company is a rarity. We deal with both states of Minnesota and Wisconsin and directly with the state governments and schools. A lot of business are not tied to these entities, so I am voicing out for those who can be sweat-shopped if it comes to that.

I'm not in IT... so I don't know the sector. But your examples don't change my mind. It's like if you got to college and get an art degree. You'll be saddled with debt and won't be able to find many jobs with an art degree. I would say that the person made an error in how they invested in themselves, wouldn't you?

 

[thethe]

So you're saying if a company can get the same production for less cost, they shouldn't do it?

How is this different than the ESP's belief that eventually there will be sweat shops?

Whats to stop businesses within the same industry to conspire together to ensure that all wages are low?

 

[sturg33]

How is this different than the ESP's belief that eventually there will be sweat shops?

Whats to stop businesses within the same industry to conspire together to ensure that all wages are low?

Because you eventually lose good talent if you won't compensate.

AGAIN, if every business is conspiring to get us to sweat shops, why aren't we ALL working for minimum wage today?