Klein's Fear

BedellBrave said:
What I find interesting (mildly) is that Ds lay the blame for Trump solely at the feet of Rs and never ever consider that their own push and agenda has something to do with it all...

Trump is winning because people hate you guys and want to punch you in the face. They see you as smug, self-righteous, and as a threat. You are Joy Behar. You are that leftie kid in school that was always so annoying.
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I guess some people grow up (evolve) and some stay in grade school forever.

"leftie kid in school"? Now that's a revealing phrase and first time I have ever seen it before. I seriously have no idea what it means.
 
Julio3000 said:
I've run the gamut on Trump for the last several months. I've been alternately puzzled, bemused, amused, distressed, etc. Like so many other people, I've waited for the "inevitable" bursting of the bubble, each time he's said or done something outrageous. Of course, it hasn't happened. I admitted a while ago that I went from thinking he had zero chance at the nomination, to thinking that he had a slim chance, to now figuring that it's approaching a coin flip. At this point, I'm not really afraid of his winning the election, but I'll concede that I've been wrong about him more than once to this point.

And while I said yesterday that I experienced no small amount of schadenfreude that Republicans appeared to be getting the candidate they deserved—for their fetishizing of wealth, for their anti-intellectualism, for their encouragement of nativism and everything else—today I've found that feeling dissolving into worry. Worry for what it means for our society, our politics, our identity. I'm still not particularly worried that he's going to become president, but I'm worried about what his ascent means for the future.

I tend to think that Trump's campaign has been smart and calculated rather than freewheeling, reactionary and ignorant, as it's been portrayed. I think he's a bully, and per the maxim about punching a bully in the nose, the way you curb this particular bully is by beating him. He was oddly deflated and detached-seeming after losing in Iowa. If this campaign is a massive ego-feed for him, his ego trip ends when he loses. It's just that the shower of mediocrities who've shared the stage with him haven't been able to pull it off yet. Lindsey Graham, after the first debate, said something to the effect of "I can't believe I'm losing to these guys." That says it all, to me. He's terrible, but what does it say about them that they can't seem to lay a glove on him?

I think the situation has come to a head because of the singular personality of Trump, but its roots are in the weakness of the Republican party. For years now it's been the captive of the Tea Party, where cutting off one's nose to spite one's face is pretty much the price of admission. They have no interest in governing and value purity over results, every time. That dynamic has continued to shrink the demographic appeal of the party, and I'm not really certain how that trend is going to be reversed.

There was a lot of comment from the national press about the appearance of Rubio on the stump in SC with Nikki Haley and Tim Scott. The picture that was painted was of youth and diversity, but the optics were just papering over the fact that the party's appeal has narrowed to a swath of folks who represent just the opposite. One thing I will say about Hillary is that, despite the jokes and memes about her courting the black vote in SC, or her attempts to run the table with female voters by any means necessary, she represents something more than window dressing. Her team and the various state apparati that support her are legitimately diverse across numerous fronts, and her appeal to women and minorities is probably more legitimately informed and earned than her detractors are willing to credit. The Trump phenomenon, for the moment, exists within the context of the party for whose nomination he's running. He's found a message that resonates with that crowd, and that's what's going to have to change.
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This is really good analysis. The only thing I would add is that both parties have ignored the white, working class vote for about four decades and as the stress of that serial ignorance reached the managerial class, it has coalesced into a movement that has given us a candidate like Trump. Trump has avoided the sideshows on the social issues and the faux love of the Constitution that have pervaded conservative thought for the past couple of decades, instead honing a message around economic issues, which is probably closer to the traditional Republican train of thought than anyone else in the Republican field. Sure, there is a strong nativist and racially motivated element in his base, but that's been around since Reagan's wooing of blue collar workers in 1980. I think the other angle here is that Trump is successfully portraying himself as a "doer," which differentiates him from a guy like Cruz who would seemingly shut down the government because he doesn't like the choices on the Capitol cafeteria menu. Far from being the extreme bloc that wants to avoid any action, most Americans--including conservatives--realize that compromise is part of the game and that a stalemated government is in no one's best interest.

As I said in another thread, Trump is in a very unique position. He can basically tell Republicans, you may win with me, but you'll lose without me because I'll run as a third party candidate. Could be a little late to get on the ballot in a number of states as a third party guy, but a Trump not playing nice during the fall campaign would likely torpedo any Republican's chance of winning.
 
50PoundHead said:
This is really good analysis. The only thing I would add is that both parties have ignored the white, working class vote for about four decades and as the stress of that serial ignorance reached the managerial class, it has coalesced into a movement that has given us a candidate like Trump. Trump has avoided the sideshows on the social issues and the faux love of the Constitution that have pervaded conservative thought for the past couple of decades, instead honing a message around economic issues, which is probably closer to the traditional Republican train of thought than anyone else in the Republican field. Sure, there is a strong nativist and racially motivated element in his base, but that's been around since Reagan's wooing of blue collar workers in 1980. I think the other angle here is that Trump is successfully portraying himself as a "doer," which differentiates him from a guy like Cruz who would seemingly shut down the government because he doesn't like the choices on the Capitol cafeteria menu. Far from being the extreme bloc that wants to avoid any action, most Americans--including conservatives--realize that compromise is part of the game and that a stalemated government is in no one's best interest.

As I said in another thread, Trump is in a very unique position. He can basically tell Republicans, you may win with me, but you'll lose without me because I'll run as a third party candidate. Could be a little late to get on the ballot in a number of states as a third party guy, but a Trump not playing nice during the fall campaign would likely torpedo any Republican's chance of winning.
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Yeah, this is definitely part of the appeal. Republicans have been wooing those folks with social issues and the table scraps of trickle-down economics. Democrats have promised, but not delivered, affordable health care and higher education. Trump is winning with vague but energetic promises to do . . . something.
 
BedellBrave said:
What I find interesting (mildly) is that Ds lay the blame for Trump solely at the feet of Rs and never ever consider that their own push and agenda has something to do with it all...

Trump is winning because people hate you guys and want to punch you in the face. They see you as smug, self-righteous, and as a threat. You are Joy Behar. You are that leftie kid in school that was always so annoying.
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Well, B, I take it as a matter of course that Republican primary voters feel that way. Ted Cruz voters don't hate Democrats any less than do Trump voters. They probably hate them more, since I'd wager that they're more ideologically driven than Trumpistas.

The demonization of the opposition works across the board. It's even starker when the opposition is in the WH. Sorry, but that's not explaining Trump or Trump-ism.
 
Runnin said:
I guess some people grow up (evolve) and some stay in grade school forever.

"leftie kid in school"? Now that's a revealing phrase and first time I have ever seen it before. I seriously have no idea what it means.
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Were you then that sort of guy in school Runnin?

Just telling you what those voters think of you guys. And suggesting that we shouldn't always just blame others even when the others are so retrograde stooges and racists and homophobes and warmongers.
 
Julio3000 said:
Well, B, I take it as a matter of course that Republican primary voters feel that way. Ted Cruz voters don't hate Democrats any less than do Trump voters. They probably hate them more, since I'd wager that they're more ideologically driven than Trumpistas.

The demonization of the opposition works across the board. It's even starker when the opposition is in the WH. Sorry, but that's not explaining Trump or Trump-ism.
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Just sharing the mirrors with you guys who just love to explain Trump and laud Hillary's smarts.
 
I agree to a point with Bedell, I feel a like a lot of Trump's surge is because of the political correct left... and the idea that "if you'd don't see it our way, you're a racist, ignorant bigot who doesn't deserve ot breathe our air" attitude that the left espouses. Trump is the guy who is willing to say what everyone else hasn't been willing to, and that appeals to some people
 
as in Mexicans are rapists and Islam should be banned.

What y'all don't get , since Reagan, it's not the messenger, it's the message. Trump isn't the issue any more than Romney or McCain before him. It is the policies that people reject. People didn't vote for Obama twice because of the color of his skin, even Romney recognized that, 47% comment. Which I agree with, 47% of the voting public rejects the language / policies of the right
 
no matter. It is easy to on the surface say oh, people just want free stuff. Phrased from the rights viewpoint. that might appear to be so. But for the 54%that elected Obama, it wasn't free stuff.

So yeah, Trump is saying what others won"t say. And that is his appeal. But He gets a steady 30% of (R) voters.

Same 30% that still believes Obama is a Manchurian creation.

How did the Clinton team get him elected? Stress policies to make people's lives better.Or, fill the dam potholes
 
sturg33 said:
I agree to a point with Bedell, I feel a like a lot of Trump's surge is because of the political correct left... and the idea that "if you'd don't see it our way, you're a racist, ignorant bigot who doesn't deserve ot breathe our air" attitude that the left espouses. Trump is the guy who is willing to say what everyone else hasn't been willing to, and that appeals to some people
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I certainly agree with the idea that a lot of the loudest support for Trump is in reaction to the perception of PC culture. I've got no problem with that analysis.

Where I run into trouble is in the application of that idea. I suppose it's too much to ask that people exercise a little discernment when they consider the veracity of statements that "others haven't been willing" to say.
 
sturg33 said:
I agree to a point with Bedell, I feel a like a lot of Trump's surge is because of the political correct left... and the idea that "if you'd don't see it our way, you're a racist, ignorant bigot who doesn't deserve ot breathe our air" attitude that the left espouses. Trump is the guy who is willing to say what everyone else hasn't been willing to, and that appeals to some people
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They certainly take different forms, but there is a political correctness that stems from both ends of the spectrum and Trump blows that all out of the water. I watched his CNN interview the other day, and while he takes a kind of anti-intellectual stance (probably better labeled as an anti-expertise stance), he certainly goes beyond any language "playbook." I think people find that refreshing.
 
50PoundHead said:
They certainly take different forms, but there is a political correctness that stems from both ends of the spectrum and Trump blows that all out of the water. I watched his CNN interview the other day, and while he takes a kind of anti-intellectual stance (probably better labeled as an anti-expertise stance), he certainly goes beyond any language "playbook." I think people find that refreshing.
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You mind posting it? I saw an interview he did recently where he was speaking about our foreign policy - and someone seemed to turn the crazy off... He was pretty thoughtful and I agreed with much of what he said
 
BedellBrave said:
Were you then that sort of guy in school Runnin?
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Perhaps on the inside, but I was more class clown and jock than anything. I'm sure there were political discussions in my HS but I wasn't mature enough to be concerned.
BedellBrave said:
Just telling you what those voters think of you guys.
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I already fear the Rush Limbaugh/Fox News crowd and know they/you are capable of most anything, even occasionally having a progressive thought.
 
sturg33 said:
You mind posting it? I saw an interview he did recently where he was speaking about our foreign policy - and someone seemed to turn the crazy off... He was pretty thoughtful and I agreed with much of what he said
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Here it is. I think the thing to remember here is that this is right after a big win and he's in a jovial mood, so he loves everybody and is in the position to be diplomatic. I frankly don't know what the parallel to Trump is. Probably a more well-behaved Berlusconi.

Link: http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/02/21/sotu-tapper-donald-trump-full-interview.cnn
 
sturg33 said:
Bedell, I'm no Trump fan... but I hate Rubio even more. This is a good article that sums up my thoughts pretty well

LINK: Why I'm more worried about Marco Rubio than Donald Trump
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I've been saying this for a long time, but I was talking about Cruz, not Rubio. Do you think he would really be this extreme (like in the article) or is it just rhetoric to fire up the base and get votes/delegates? This article actually sounds a lot like the US Senator for Arkansas that I have to hear about all the time, Tom Cotton. Imagine if the two of them ever got together to plan foreign policy.

Bedell, do you really think Rubio is gonna be a "status quo" guy? I'm afraid that will only kill us as a nation more slowly. We need changes and lots of them, but not from the frying pan into the fire, the other way around.
 
Rubio and Cruz both seem to have pulled their foreign policy folks from the neocon bench. I wish I had the ability to fail upwards like those cats do.
 
Oklahomahawk said:
I've been saying this for a long time, but I was talking about Cruz, not Rubio. Do you think he would really be this extreme (like in the article) or is it just rhetoric to fire up the base and get votes/delegates? This article actually sounds a lot like the US Senator for Arkansas that I have to hear about all the time, Tom Cotton. Imagine if the two of them ever got together to plan foreign policy.

Bedell, do you really think Rubio is gonna be a "status quo" guy? I'm afraid that will only kill us as a nation more slowly. We need changes and lots of them, but not from the frying pan into the fire, the other way around.
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OHawk, I think we are damned if we do and damned if we don't actually. Hillary and Rubio, to a lesser extent, will be status quo and agreeable to Wall Street and the military industry. I think Cruz actually will as well (banks and military). Who in the world knows what Trump will do. Bernie is done.
 
BedellBrave said:
OHawk, I think we are damned if we do and damned if we don't actually. Hillary and Rubio, to a lesser extent, will be status quo and agreeable to Wall Street and the military industry. I think Cruz actually will as well (banks and military). Who in the world knows what Trump will do. Bernie is done.
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Let's hope Bernie holds on at least long enough to give everyone a chance to see (and hopefully videotape) Hillary's "shenanigans" so she won't be able to do them again in November, unless it's Cruz she's running against, then I say anything goes because screwed doesn't even begin to describe what I would think about a Hillary-Cruz matchup this November.
 
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