Tapate50
Well-known member
So a 3B prospect. SWEET. FINALLY.... this literally gets me fired up.
Looking Ahead - The 2020 Offseason Thread
- Thread starter clvclv
- Start date
So a 3B prospect. SWEET. FINALLY.... this literally gets me fired up.
Braves are going to circle back on Adam Duvall. Duvall/Ender platoon, Pache, Acuna OF. Ozuna DH.
A bat costs like $100
I really hope they can find a better LHH than Ender, especially considering both sides of that platoon may play everyday for a while while Pache marinates in AAA a bit.
Kid already has an 80 grade bat flip.
Wonder what kind of car he wants as a pre-signing gift?
Mentioned Waters' potential to contribute in 2021 as a complete guess until seeing this (really surprised no one had posted it already)...
Drew Waters has been Pache’s outfield partner throughout the minor leagues and was rated almost as highly on prospect lists before last season. Waters, a former Georgia high-school star who turned 22 last week, has yet to make his major-league debut, but his daily work at Gwinnett helped assure that 2019 wasn’t a lost year for him.
“Yeah, he was definitely a real highlight down there,” Sestanovich said. “Drew brings a lot of energy every night to the ballpark, and that was no different. He’s a really talented athlete and a very good baseball player. We saw improvements from him on both sides of the ball. I think continuing to be in an outfield with Pache on a regular basis, even with some of the younger guys like Michael Harris — again, I thought these guys sort of pushed each other. Each of our little groups, position players and pitchers, developed a nice, sort of healthy competition among themselves. I think it was no different for the outfielders.
“Drew wanted to work on his right-handed swing; I thought he made some nice strides there. I think for all the hitters there, facing the caliber of pitchers, the arms that we had on a regular basis, was pretty unique. Like, I don’t think every teams’ alternate site could provide that. Through no fault of their own. We were lucky and our guys faced really good stuff on a regular basis. I think it potentially accelerated some development despite the lost minor-league season.”
https://theathletic.com/2304360/202...rson-kyle-wright-bryse-wilson-cristian-pache/
Still just blind guessing, but the "potentially accelerated some development" part probably isn't in the Waters part of the story by mistake. The story also mentions that all 3 Catchers impressed.
Drew Waters has been Pache’s outfield partner throughout the minor leagues and was rated almost as highly on prospect lists before last season. Waters, a former Georgia high-school star who turned 22 last week, has yet to make his major-league debut, but his daily work at Gwinnett helped assure that 2019 wasn’t a lost year for him.
“Yeah, he was definitely a real highlight down there,” Sestanovich said. “Drew brings a lot of energy every night to the ballpark, and that was no different. He’s a really talented athlete and a very good baseball player. We saw improvements from him on both sides of the ball. I think continuing to be in an outfield with Pache on a regular basis, even with some of the younger guys like Michael Harris — again, I thought these guys sort of pushed each other. Each of our little groups, position players and pitchers, developed a nice, sort of healthy competition among themselves. I think it was no different for the outfielders.
“Drew wanted to work on his right-handed swing; I thought he made some nice strides there. I think for all the hitters there, facing the caliber of pitchers, the arms that we had on a regular basis, was pretty unique. Like, I don’t think every teams’ alternate site could provide that. Through no fault of their own. We were lucky and our guys faced really good stuff on a regular basis. I think it potentially accelerated some development despite the lost minor-league season.”
https://theathletic.com/2304360/202...rson-kyle-wright-bryse-wilson-cristian-pache/
Still just blind guessing, but the "potentially accelerated some development" part probably isn't in the Waters part of the story by mistake. The story also mentions that all 3 Catchers impressed.
UNCBlue012
Well-known member
I really like Waters, especially the raw tools, but his game is still really raw. The difference between Waters and Pache is that Pache refined his skills before he moved up each level, whether or not the numbers reflected it yet. Waters has seemingly been pushed by his gaudy numbers and that can be dangerous.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
I have to hope that our development staff isn't just boxscore watching.
Pache does have 3 years of pro experience on Waters. Waters does have red flags of a very high babip and a high strike out rate. He is still very young.
I think most people feel like the LH swing is really good and he's going to be a good player. He seems to be a person that is expected to be at least avg in center. I really like him.
If you can get a Joc Pederson to play LF for a year it seems to be a win win. Waters should earn his way up, not be given it. And I think everyone thinks he could use more professional at bats to refine approach. Even if you are all in on waters, it would be worth 10 million to pederson to get an extra year of control on waters.
Oklahomabrave
Anytime Now Frankie...
I’m going to bet we get Benintendi
UNCBlue012
Well-known member
I'm not sure of the exact answer but I do know that this is a concern other scouts have as well. They feel Atlanta may be pushing him quicker than necessary. Again, it's all hearsay but a definite issue.
That's why I wouldn't be distraught if AA's shopping in the cheaper aisles as was mentioned yesterday - a bit disappointed, sure, but not distraught.
If - and this is all supposition - Waters really did take a step forward last summer and they think he's coming fast, adding Pederson, Villar, and an arm or two in the pen on one year deals would make this team really deep, and you wouldn't really be blocking guys like Waters and Shewmake if they forced their way onto the roster late this season. There would probably be a pretty decent market for guys like Pederson and Villar at the deadline. If you need to play Riley with Pederson in LF, Villar could play 3B on those days.
While it wouldn't be "ideal", Ozzie could hit second against lefties with Freddie dropping back to the #3 spot and Riley or d'Arnaud hitting behind Freeman.
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Southcack77
Well-known member
I don't think blocking non-elite prospects should be any consideration for the front office.
Which takes us back to the frustration with the lack of info coming from Gwinnett last summer.
Waters was a borderline elite prospect with a couple of holes to tighten up. Plenty of work to do, but I haven't seen a single report that said he wasn't going to be a really exciting player at the MLB level if he could make those adjustments. We've heard that plenty of times before, so it's reasonable to be skeptical until we can actually see what kind of strides he's made. If he didn't show pretty substantial improvement, it's also reasonable to think AA would be looking for more of an "answer" than platoon-level LFs with the questions he already faces with Riley.
The only recent "info" we have is what UNCBlue's buddy mentioned - that AA doesn't seem to be poking around towards the top end of the market. If that's the case - and they're not expecting Waters to contribute in 2021 - it would seem to make more sense that he'd be looking for both sides of a platoon in LF, not just one.
Most of this all comes down to what he has left to spend, but if there's only ~ $20 million available I'd be pretty happy with a Rosario/Duvall platoon in LF for $10 million, Villar as a super-utility guy for around $5 million, and another solid pen arm in that $5 million range.
His 2020 was weird. 2019 statcast data was fairly promising. Highest exit velocity and hard hit rate of his career. A spike in K rate, but all in all, you might have expected a rebound to 2018 levels in 2020. Obviously it was a super short sample size, but he was dreadful in 2020.
All of 14 games though
I'm open to him, but he might just be a platoon bat. I wonder if it would be better to give up prospects for Benintendi or pay the money it would take to get Joc Pederson.
ixiXSolidXixi
Called Up to the Major Leagues
The difference between Pache and Waters can be summed up by a couple data points from their AA numbers in 2019.
Pache: BABIP = .351, OPS = .814
Waters: BABIP = .439, OPS = .847
Waters and his sky high BABIP barely outproduced Pache and his much more reasonable BABIP over roughly 450 PAs.
Now, obviously there are skills players possess that translate to higher sustained BABIP values, but an absurd mark of .439 should result in much higher production than a .847 OPS if the prospect truly was an impact bat.
To me, Pache is very clearly the superior prospect at this point in time.
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UNCBlue012
Well-known member
Archie Bradley has agreed to a one-year, $6 million deal with the Phillies, per source.
I don't think anyone would argue that at all - the question that keeps popping up is "why does AA seem so resistant to include Waters in trade discussions?", particularly if everyone else is looking at the same information.
I have no idea unless they "see" some of those skills that just don't show up in the metrics and feel relatively certain that they're going to translate fairly soon. You could've imagined part of it was "hometown kid" bias with previous regimes, but AA doesn't seem to be swayed by that at all.