Making a Murderer.

gilesfan said:
I believe most of the information was from the NY Daily News. You can probably google something like "Why Avery is guilty"

The former prosecutor has also provided a lot of this information, I believe.
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I've read plenty about the case and have yet to hear most of what you proposed; that's why I asked. But I certainly appreciate the condescension. I've heard multiple interviews with Kratz and he hasn't mentioned any of that.

And the DNA from the hood isn't 'sweat DNA'. There's no such thing. It's just DNA.

The phone and belongings mean nothing. Her body was there, obviously it's not a surprise her belongings were there as well. If you believe the body was moved, you can certainly believe those were moved. The parts of Dassey's testimony regarding the gun and hood also mean nothing to me. So he knew where Avery kept his gun? What does that prove? And the prosecution claims they found the hood DNA after Dassey's confession, so it wouldn't be that hard to just go put it there afterward.

The part about the steel belts in the fire pit would be interesting but wouldn't necessarily prove anything. Giving Auto Trader a fake name would definitely be interesting, but the defense specifically claims he called them and gave them his name so I'm not sure where that info is coming from.

The part about the bullet and his initial alibi would certainly be interesting, but I again don't know where it's coming from. I would guess Kratz would be yelling about the bullet evidence everywhere if it was true, but I haven't heard him mention it once.
 
bravesnumberone said:
This is pretty plausible.

http://www.sunnyskyz.com/blog/1244/...ble-Making-A-Murderer-Theory-I-ve-Seen-So-Far
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I can honestly think of several plausible theories, and the whole thing going down the way the prosecution and/or Brendan Dassey claim is one of the least plausible of all, based on what I know. I haven't read the trial transcripts so I don't know everything, but I've now heard pretty much everything that the defense and prosecution have claimed.
 
smootness said:
I can honestly think of several plausible theories, and the whole thing going down the way the prosecution and/or Brendan Dassey claim is one of the least plausible of all, based on what I know. I haven't read the trial transcripts so I don't know everything, but I've now heard pretty much everything that the defense and prosecution have claimed.
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His lawyers dont even think he's innocent.
 
smootness said:
I can honestly think of several plausible theories, and the whole thing going down the way the prosecution and/or Brendan Dassey claim is one of the least plausible of all, based on what I know. I haven't read the trial transcripts so I don't know everything, but I've now heard pretty much everything that the defense and prosecution have claimed.
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For me it's absurd he was convicted. Even if he is guilty (and I'm not convinced) the amount of **** the police did is way more than enough to create a doubt that he did commit the crime. I cannot say he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If he relaly was why plant the key and blood?
 
zitothebrave said:
For me it's absurd he was convicted. Even if he is guilty (and I'm not convinced) the amount of **** the police did is way more than enough to create a doubt that he did commit the crime. I cannot say he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If he relaly was why plant the key and blood?
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The other thing is motive. What possible motive would this guy have to do something like that when A.) He's about to get rich as hell, and B.) The Sheriff's Department hates his ass, and he knows it?

The other things I have immense trouble with:

- The Sgt. Colborn guy calling in the damn plates to her car (like he's looking at it) before it's even discovered.
- The hole and broken seal on Avery's 1985 blood collection.
- Halbach's blood being in the back of the car like her body was there, meaning he would have put her in the back of the car and drove it like, what, 20 yards or less?
- Somehow Avery is the only one who had DNA on the car key that was magically found in plain sight in his bedroom after several searches.
- How Avery is smart enough to clean up all the blood from his bedroom where he raped her and either cut her throat or had her throat cut, then clean up all the blood spray, which would have resulted from her being shot in the head, in the cluttered garage. But he's somehow dumb enough to leave the freaking car in the salvage yard instead of destroying it, something most criminals would never have access to.

Give me a break.
 
Yeah people are trying to give Avery too much credit in this. There is no way he is smart enough to accomplish all that stuff. Heck his main reason of why he couldn't have committed that rape was because he doesn't own underwear.
 
bravesnumberone said:
The other thing is motive. What possible motive would this guy have to do something like that when A.) He's about to get rich as hell, and B.) The Sheriff's Department hates his ass, and he knows it?

The other things I have immense trouble with:

- The Sgt. Colborn guy calling in the damn plates to her car (like he's looking at it) before it's even discovered.

- The hole and broken seal on Avery's 1985 blood collection.

- Halbach's blood being in the back of the car like her body was there, meaning he would have put her in the back of the car and drove it like, what, 20 yards or less?

- Somehow Avery is the only one who had DNA on the car key that was magically found in plain sight in his bedroom after several searches.

- How Avery is smart enough to clean up all the blood from his bedroom where he raped her and either cut her throat or had her throat cut, then clean up all the blood spray, which would have resulted from her being shot in the head, in the cluttered garage. But he's somehow dumb enough to leave the freaking car in the salvage yard instead of destroying it, something most criminals would never have access to.

Give me a break.
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The motive is, he's crazy as ****, and has a history of random, violent behavior. Again, there is way, way, way too much circumstantial evidence to think this guy is innocent.

And also, everyone agrees that he isn't smart enough to properly destroy evidence. But then you question his motive, basically assuming he isn't stupid enough to commit this crime when he's about to get rich. You can't have it both ways. Most criminals aren't very smart, which is why they get caught in the first place.
 
Carp said:
The motive is, he's crazy as ****, and has a history of random, violent behavior. Again, there is way, way, way too much circumstantial evidence to think this guy is innocent.

And also, everyone agrees that he isn't smart enough to properly destroy evidence. But then you question his motive, basically assuming he isn't stupid enough to commit this crime when he's about to get rich. You can't have it both ways. Most criminals aren't very smart, which is why they get caught in the first place.
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Circumstantial evidence lol. Care to address any of my other points?
 
smootness said:
I've read plenty about the case and have yet to hear most of what you proposed; that's why I asked. But I certainly appreciate the condescension. I've heard multiple interviews with Kratz and he hasn't mentioned any of that.

And the DNA from the hood isn't 'sweat DNA'. There's no such thing. It's just DNA.

The phone and belongings mean nothing. Her body was there, obviously it's not a surprise her belongings were there as well. If you believe the body was moved, you can certainly believe those were moved. The parts of Dassey's testimony regarding the gun and hood also mean nothing to me. So he knew where Avery kept his gun? What does that prove? And the prosecution claims they found the hood DNA after Dassey's confession, so it wouldn't be that hard to just go put it there afterward.

The part about the steel belts in the fire pit would be interesting but wouldn't necessarily prove anything. Giving Auto Trader a fake name would definitely be interesting, but the defense specifically claims he called them and gave them his name so I'm not sure where that info is coming from.

The part about the bullet and his initial alibi would certainly be interesting, but I again don't know where it's coming from. I would guess Kratz would be yelling about the bullet evidence everywhere if it was true, but I haven't heard him mention it once.
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The DNA found was from sweat

Avery had multiple guns, but Dassey identified the one that was used in the crime.

Kratz has been mentioning it all over the place. I think he also mentioned in the reddit AMA.

The problem is people think that bc the police possibly planted evidence to get a conviction, that he cant be guilty. Furthermore, this absolute scumbag is getting sympathy from very reasonable (and smart) people.
 
zitothebrave said:
For me it's absurd he was convicted. Even if he is guilty (and I'm not convinced) the amount of **** the police did is way more than enough to create a doubt that he did commit the crime. I cannot say he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If he relaly was why plant the key and blood?
Click to expand...

Because you can know he killed her and not believe you have enough evidence to get a jury to convict. Lawyers are very good at spinning circumstantial evidence.
 
bravesnumberone said:
The other thing is motive. What possible motive would this guy have to do something like that when A.) He's about to get rich as hell, and B.) The Sheriff's Department hates his ass, and he knows it?

The other things I have immense trouble with:

- The Sgt. Colborn guy calling in the damn plates to her car (like he's looking at it) before it's even discovered.
- The hole and broken seal on Avery's 1985 blood collection.
- Halbach's blood being in the back of the car like her body was there, meaning he would have put her in the back of the car and drove it like, what, 20 yards or less?
- Somehow Avery is the only one who had DNA on the car key that was magically found in plain sight in his bedroom after several searches.
- How Avery is smart enough to clean up all the blood from his bedroom where he raped her and either cut her throat or had her throat cut, then clean up all the blood spray, which would have resulted from her being shot in the head, in the cluttered garage. But he's somehow dumb enough to leave the freaking car in the salvage yard instead of destroying it, something most criminals would never have access to.

Give me a break.
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Because he's sick. THis is a guy that assaulted his own cousin. Also a guy that was in prison telling his cellmate that he couldn't wait to get out to create a rape chamber. Money doesn't push the demons away. There are plenty of examples of psychopaths that has everything going for them, yet attack women.

- Curious about this. Possibly found the car illegally or was trying to remember what the vehicle he was looking for was.
- Definitely bad
- I don't have problem with this. He certainly could have moved body. 100+ pounds of dead weight is heavy
- The key wasn't in plain sight. It was found on the ground under something. Its possible the key was behind the dresser and when it got moved, the key fell. (just a possibility) Or the cops could have planted it
-Im not convinced he raped and killed her in his bedroom or the garage.

Just a note, Avery didn't have time to "crush" the car. You have to drain the fluids and cut the steel beams in the car to prepare it to be crushed. You don't just place the car in the crusher. Also, that was probably the first place the cops looked
 
gilesfan said:
Because he's sick. THis is a guy that assaulted his own cousin. Also a guy that was in prison telling his cellmate that he couldn't wait to get out to create a rape chamber. Money doesn't push the demons away. There are plenty of examples of psychopaths that has everything going for them, yet attack women.

- Curious about this. Possibly found the car illegally or was trying to remember what the vehicle he was looking for was.
- Definitely bad
- I don't have problem with this. He certainly could have moved body. 100+ pounds of dead weight is heavy
- The key wasn't in plain sight. It was found on the ground under something. Its possible the key was behind the dresser and when it got moved, the key fell. (just a possibility) Or the cops could have planted it
-Im not convinced he raped and killed her in his bedroom or the garage.

Just a note, Avery didn't have time to "crush" the car. You have to drain the fluids and cut the steel beams in the car to prepare it to be crushed. You don't just place the car in the crusher. Also, that was probably the first place the cops looked
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He didn't have three days to get rid of the car? Because that's how long it took to report her missing. Three days. If the cops planted anything, it should be a mistrial, end of discussion. Has it ever been confirmed he assaulted his own cousin? Does that automatically make him guilty of murder? Haven't heard the bit about the rape chamber yet. That's pretty disturbing, if true which is a huge if.
 
gilesfan said:
The DNA found was from sweat

Avery had multiple guns, but Dassey identified the one that was used in the crime.

Kratz has been mentioning it all over the place. I think he also mentioned in the reddit AMA.

The problem is people think that bc the police possibly planted evidence to get a conviction, that he cant be guilty. Furthermore, this absolute scumbag is getting sympathy from very reasonable (and smart) people.
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Except for much of the evidence the cops likely planted was hammered by the prosecution as being irrefutable evidence he was guilty.
 
The key was photographed in plain sight. Even if it was under something, uh, wouldn't they find it before the eighth try or whatever? If it was lodged in the dresser, wouldn't someone have thought to take the damn thing apart? Do you understand how a trial is supposed to work? All of these points should create a reasonable doubt.
 
gilesfan said:
Just a note, Avery didn't have time to "crush" the car. You have to drain the fluids and cut the steel beams in the car to prepare it to be crushed. You don't just place the car in the crusher. Also, that was probably the first place the cops looked
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He had days of time to crush the vehicle. You're suggesting it would have taken more time than the days he had? Come on.
 
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